TAGs seem to be losing

[jrz1972]

I've never thought of that before, but that's a brilliant idea. I know when I shop for tables I only look at those with one or two empty seats, and I'm guessing other TAGs do the same.

I'll have to give this a try sometime.

[jrz1972]

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And yet, my VPIP is quite solidly at 21.42 (even though most times I'm at a table it seems to be slightly higher than that) with a 8.37 PFR. And so far, I've been a winning player.

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There's a very broad range of stats that I think a person could win with. I'm sure there are a ton of long-run winning players with VPs over 20. I'm just not really sure that 22/12 is optimal for the games I normally play in.

[GrunchCan]

You're right. There is a very wide range of stats that are +EV. That includes stats ranging from an extremely tight VPIP 12 to a very loose VPIP 30, maybe. But there is somewhere an optimal range. For every player the range is probably a little different, due to the different areas of particular strength postflop and weak spots. For me, 22/10 is the right range.

[TripleH68]

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You're right. There is a very wide range of stats that are +EV. That includes stats ranging from an extremely tight VPIP 12 to a very loose VPIP 30, maybe. But there is somewhere an optimal range. For every player the range is probably a little different, due to the different areas of particular strength postflop and weak spots. For me, 22/10 is the right range.

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Just for comparison sake...

Over 20,000 hands this year at 1/2, 2/4, 3/6 full ring my VP$IP is around 15. I have been profitable, but it could be better.
I feel confident in moving forward/loosening up from this point. Cheers.

[MrWookie47]

I kept thinking this thread would eventually die a timely death, but after it kept getting bumped, I figured there might be something worth reading that developed. Sure enough. I guess I'll chime in.

I played a brief (~7k) stint at 2/4 full (back to 6 max now), and I was playing nearly 24/14 poker. 6 max made me into a lag. Granted, those stats are skewed because I was employing Grunch's table selection method, which I highly endorse. The only pesky thing is that sometimes the first person to sit down with you will play one HU hand, win it, and leave. It's a nuisance, but I frequently ended up at 40 VPIP tables or so doing this. Anyway, I think if I filter for full tables, I'm more like 23/13, but I blind steal and defend a lot. Where's grjr? That guy plays with something like a 27 VPIP. You can get away with a whole lot preflop if you're good postflop. It's good to reread NPA's training wheels post. You want to play with these clowns. If you're a good player, you can be looking down at your cards for an excuse to play them.

[hemstock]

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Most of the TAs and TAGs I see lose money overall, but that's just because they're up against me.

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Thats because you flop quads all the time

[Saint_D]

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(I do consider myself one of them, yes)

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I'll put the over/under for 'percentage of posters on this board who think this to be true of themselves' at 85%.

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well I can easily think of 20 posters here that are better than me, so I'm out

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[NoChance]

I am on your list there. I can tell you that I did not get a hand to play for the first 23 hands dealt to me on that table. Sample size is way too small.

[OrianasDaad]

You know what's weird?

When I look at the stats for players in my Party DB, the winningist players are LPA (elephant icon).

[Catt]

Winning players win because they play well post-flop. It is trivially easily to learn an acceptable pre-flop strategy, but much harder to play well once the flop falls. There are a ton (a ton!) of 18/8/2 guys out there who really, really suck and who are alomost certainly long-term losers at this game. When I first started playing 3/6, I was concerned about the much larger number of TAG-like stats I was seeing; after a pretty short time there, I was no longer concerned, and I had several "TAGs" on my buddy list because they weren't good post-flop and more importantly were transparent in their play.

Your sample size is insuffcient as other have pointed out; however, there will be a lot of players with TAG stats who simply are not winning players.