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#41
11-13-2005, 03:03 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
Now I was generally impressed with Andrew Black's play (from what i saw on TV and read on Cardplayer), but I just can't even wrap my head around what the F he was thinking: a) going 4 bets all-in with Phil Ivey w/ A2s, and b) calling a re-raise all-in in m/w pot with KJo Sure, it looks great to bluff Phil Ivey out of a pot on TV (although Phil actually had the worse hand, but there's no way Black knew that), but jeeeezus that was an awful awful play -- the only thing he did right in that hand was show the A2s, which might have done something for his meta-game The KJ call was just chip-spewing...what on earth is an otherwise solid-seeming player doing making these plays -- just showing off?? If that's what qualifies as good late tournament play, then i am very very far off from ever going far in a large MTT. [/ QUOTE ] You are right...what a terrible terrible play to suspect your opponent is bluffing and then actually follow through on your instinct. Phil Ivey probably hates those opponents who fold everytime he 3 bets preflop, how lucky he must have felt to be at a table with donkeys who play back at his aggression. 
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#42
11-13-2005, 03:51 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
i thought both of his plays were very good. i wish i could make a read like that on phil ivey, and gave the guts to follow through with it.
the kj is a fairly standard final table bubble play. he put the guy to a very difficult decision with JJ, and he didnt need JJ+ to raise there. even after the call, he was like 30% to win or something (don't feel like checking). it's a fine play.
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#43
11-13-2005, 04:12 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] if barch folds JJ everyone would be saying it was a great play but because barch calls its a donkey play. [/ QUOTE ] It's true. Almost every "amazing play" and "donkey play/donkey raise" and such is viewed the opposite way when the opponent does the opposite. Too many people are results oriented. [/ QUOTE ] If Harrington had been called on his 83o all-in hand, people would have called him a donkey.
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#44
11-13-2005, 04:17 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). Black knew this and therefore put Barch on wider range of hands, and was re-stealing. Fairly standard play. [/ QUOTE ] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA No.
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#45
11-13-2005, 06:13 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). [/ QUOTE ] RIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTTT. Name ONCE you have ever seen this play b4. just ONCE. [/ QUOTE ] Harrington in last year's WSOP did it to Arieh and Raymer, as seen on TV. And it happens all the freakin time online (ever seen Dr. Gammon play?) I'm not saying he's doing it with pure trash, but hands like AJs-AT/KQ/99-77 are very possible raise-fold-to-reraise hands here and potentially much wider depending on table dynamics. -g [/ QUOTE ] 1. I figured you'd mention Harrington's play, and It's not the same. This was raise/call/call/CALLABLE raise, at the bubble, with only one very obvious LAG in the hand. The bubble works both ways, guys, and many of you seem to be forgetting that. His raise will usually denote he has a very strong hand since there is such a big risk being taken, which Black should have factored. This isn't a Sit and Go where you can just buy into a new tourney where 7.5 mil is up for grabs. His "allin or nothing statement" was a dead giveaway, too. If Black was the player with AKd vs Dannenman's 99 one the T92dd flop, that $$$ is in there, figuring, "well, I have 2 overs and the nut flush draw." AB seems like a skilled player, but this was just big stack bullying gone horribly wrong, period. Oh, and Dr. Gammon? Well, if you consider playing about 300 SNG's with him seeing him play, then yes, I have seen him play. I defy you to find a single hand remotely similar to this from Dr. Gammon. There is a big difference between raising or reraising with nothing and reraising callable after a UTG raise and 2 cold calls. You would do well to learn this difference. The only player who makes plays CLOSE to this online that I am familiar with is Gigabet, and even this would be out there for him to bluff.
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#46
11-13-2005, 06:19 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] if barch folds JJ everyone would be saying it was a great play but because barch calls its a donkey play. [/ QUOTE ] It's true. Almost every "amazing play" and "donkey play/donkey raise" and such is viewed the opposite way when the opponent does the opposite. Too many people are results oriented. [/ QUOTE ] If Harrington had been called on his 83o all-in hand, people would have called him a donkey. [/ QUOTE ] It's often a fine line between brilliance and stupidity. Black even said himself, " I put him on a lower pair", so obviously, he wasn't really even considering his move much of a bluff.
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#47
11-13-2005, 06:21 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). Black knew this and therefore put Barch on wider range of hands, and was re-stealing. Fairly standard play. [/ QUOTE ] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA No. [/ QUOTE ] I guess you missed the WSOP last year where Harrington did this with 62o. I guess you missed the WPT event last year where Esfandiari did it as well. And the one with Gus Hansen, too, for that matter. You also missed the thread where ZeeJustin did this in Aruba with J9 in a 4-way pot. To clarify, the resteal is a very standard part of any good players arsensal, and your cards (while they still matter) are not as important as the situational factors here: big stack, putting him to the test, on the cusp of final table, cusp of $1MM payday, decent chance of being close to even money in equity, knowing Matusow was raising light and other didn't have big hands to raise, etc. -g
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#48
11-13-2005, 06:27 PM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). Black knew this and therefore put Barch on wider range of hands, and was re-stealing. Fairly standard play. [/ QUOTE ] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA No. [/ QUOTE ] I guess you missed the WSOP last year where Harrington did this with 62o. I guess you missed the WPT event last year where Esfandiari did it as well. And the one with Gus Hansen, too, for that matter. You also missed the thread where ZeeJustin did this in Aruba with J9 in a 4-way pot. To clarify, the resteal is a very standard part of any good players arsensal, and your cards (while they still matter) are not as important as the situational factors here: big stack, putting him to the test, on the cusp of final table, cusp of $1MM payday, decent chance of being close to even money in equity, knowing Matusow was raising light and other didn't have big hands to raise, etc. -g [/ QUOTE ] COMPLETELY different cases. You are essentially saying that since a raise was made after another raise and at least one call, that it is the same, and it isn't close. Context is EVERYTHING here. Tell you what, tell me how many factors point towards a resteal by barch here, and then how many point to a resteal by Black being successful, and I guarantee I can come up with twice as many disputing. All raises and reraises are not alike. If they were, I would ALWAYS reraise any two vs a raise and 2 callers, and consider it a good play.
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#49
11-14-2005, 12:57 AM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). [/ QUOTE ] RIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTTT. Name ONCE you have ever seen this play b4. just ONCE. [/ QUOTE ] Dan Harrington done this quite a few times. I think he did it rather famously at the final table last year w/62o. He talks about this play in his books. Course his image helps a lot when he makes this play.
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#50
11-14-2005, 03:25 AM
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Re: Black\'s 2 donkey plays
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So a good player in that spot will sometimes raise with any two cards, because he knows that anyone who wants to play with him has to put their whole stack at risk (or half their stack in Blacks case). [/ QUOTE ] RIIIIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTTT. Name ONCE you have ever seen this play b4. just ONCE. [/ QUOTE ] Dan Harrington done this quite a few times. I think he did it rather famously at the final table last year w/62o. He talks about this play in his books. Course his image helps a lot when he makes this play. [/ QUOTE ] How many times in one thread do i have to explain this..........................?
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