NLHE Tournament Hand Ranking for All-In

[Aisthesis]

Cool! Glad you enjoyed!

I know I've made the move on aces worse than A8o from there, but I'm thinking the chart is probably right. For one thing, while with bigger stack-sizes (and this one certainly isn't huge by any means) you're actually increasing the likelihood of a fold, BUT you're risking a stack that would give you more time to wait for a better hand--and the remaining 5 players definitely are going to call if they have a truly good hand.

Regarding sub-optimal play of opponents: Actually, I'm convinced that if your opponents are likely to make frivolous calls, you need to be tighter in your hand selection for the all-in. I did an experiment on 22 with throwing in 30 hands as callers that are 49.5% underdogs, and this drove the maximum stack-size down. On A8o, an expected call by hands like KQo or KJo would probably do the same. (I'll run a couple of these just to see) So, I think that means you have to be a little more selective in that case.

If, on the other hand, your opponents are likely to fold some superior hands (sub-optimal play due to too much tightness), this will CLEARLY drive your safety margin up in terms of stack-size. So, you can add a few points to the maximum acceptable stack-size, I think.

Thanks for the encouragement on the quiz idea! I was also beginning to think that this thread had kind of run its course. At the moment, I've been a bit pre-occupied with trying to figure out the basics on this [0,1] game that David and Jerrod (as well as players like Chris Ferguson, apparently) have apparently been working on for a while, so I've gotten a bit distracted in terms of this project.

I'll definitely post the results here on sub-optimal calls with A8o (I think I'll add in KJo in one case and K2o in another, just to see what happens). The sub-optimal play aspect actually raises an interesting theoretical question.

On possible new quiz threads, do you think it's better to post them here in the theory section still? or better under tournament poker? I'd like to maintain the continuity with the theoretical questions, but in a sense, they're going to be more practical tournament questions. By the way, feel free to post some quizzes or any other related issues yourself if you feel like it. I'm very happy to have an excellent collaborator on all this!

[Aisthesis]

How's this for an interesting result: Loose callers seem to make your hand LESS valuable in EP and MORE valuable in LP!!!!

I ran A8o in 2 new ways. First, there's the original version (listed simply as A8o). Then I ran the same hand assuming KJo would call (A8o'). Then, finally, the same hand, assuming that both KJo and K2o (which is getting to be a pretty extreme underdog) would call (A8o''). Here are the results:

------10----9-----8-----7-----6-----5-----4-----3
A8o---1.73--2.07--2.52--3.12--3.97--5.26--7.42--11.78
A8o'--1.69--2.04--2.49--3.11--3.98--5.31--7.53--12.02
A8o''-1.72--2.09--2.57--3.22--4.15--5.57--7.96--12.77

Actually, already against 6 opponents, you would prefer for KJo to call, by a slight margin. And if K2o also calls, it is such an underdog that you really would like a call from that hand pretty much any time you're really thinking of making the move.

So, the moral of the story seems to be that against loose callers, you should be much more inclined to move in in LP than you are in EP! In MP, it probably won't make much difference.

[PairTheBoard]

I think the reason throwing those 49.5% hands in pushes the stack ratio down is because those hands have the pot odds to call. We should keep in mind that your ratios are slightly inflated because of not including these kind of hands. In the case of 22 there's a really big difference. If you started throwing in underdogs that do not have pot odds to call I'm sure it would drive the stack ratio up. Perfect play means calling with pot odds. Anything that deviates from that pushes the stack ratio up.

I think it's ok to post quiz threads here since they relate to the ground breaking theoretical work you've done. I'm afraid they may be getting buried in this thread. After one of these threads gets so large it becomes too difficult to navigate. Most people read the topic post and if they don't have a response to it they quit readin after a while. The Quiz might get good responses in the Tournament Section as well. You might try both places and see what happens.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

I think the reason it's working this way is that in EP you are making the move with smaller Stacks. That means the call has better pot odds. If the Stack Ratio gets small enough the Underdog actually has sufficient pot odds to call. When that happens you expect the optimum Stack Ratio to decline back closer to the K-S calling criteria. It would really be great if J would run the full table simulaiton using the K-S criterai: The Best Hand with Pot Odds to call does so. You could still consider what happens when people play looser than the K-S criteria. But then it will consistently cause the Stack Ratio to rise.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

Aisthesis, I played in a couple of MultiTable online tournies last night. I couldn't believe how often I was in situations where I wanted to apply your results. After about an hour of play the blinds rise to levels that have you in the Stack/Pot Ratio Ranges you've been looking at NEARLY EVERY HAND. Unless you've been fortunate enough to double up a couple of times. imo, your work may well revolutionize MultiTable tourny play. This is the kind of thing where you could sell small pamphlets of the results for 3 Figure Prices - Hyping the Profits they can generate. Your generousity in giving them away for free here is remarkable.

PairTheBoard