$200 NL, getting tricky/stupid with suited connectors.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Maaaaaybe you get another 13 out of missed overs. But maybe you give up 150 against an overpair. I don't like it.

[amoeba]

you think overpair drops it to me leading the turn ?

I think long term the 2 lines will make about the same amount of money against overpair.

I've been thinking about this alot.

So lets take the bet all 3 streets line. you bet flop for 2/3 pot to pot he calls.

turn pot is 40 or so. you probably bet 1/2 pot to 2/3 here. he calls.

about 90 by the river.

you bet 40 to 50, he may or may not call you depending on how tight he is.

lets see check minraise line.

I check, he bets, I minraise, he calls.

pot by the turn is already 70.

I bet $30, he folds? maybe but he is getting such good pot odds and I can conceivably play a flush draw this way right? so he calls.

river is 130.

at this point it doesn't matter whether he calls my river bet or not because I've already made my money. and if I make a severe value bet like 30, he's almost forced to call.

pot increases exponentially and by minraising the flop, you've essentially doubled your principle thus making all future value bets seem small relative to the pot but actually sizable in actual amount.

This combined with the times that he pays off more with missed overs, I don't think flop check minraise is that bad.

If I lead the flop, he folds with missed overs because its 2 to 1 to hit 6 outers and unless if I'm doing this with nothing, its pointless for him to call. but if I checkminraise, he feels its only 13 more in to a 54 pot and is more likely to call with missed overs as I could be doing this with just top pair or flush draw thus I actually get 26 that I wouldn't have gotten had I lead out.

[heretowin]

Can you post the result?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I fold AA to the c/r first time you do it.

[BobboFitos]

twp, i think your points are far more valid then most of the suggested lines / advice doled out here,and i like what you are saying, but there is one assumption you are making which i think is wrong:

[ QUOTE ]
When you check/raise, he is NOT going to think that you have second pair or a flush draw. He is going to think you have a set or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you said everyone folds to a c/r. If this is the case you should call with ATC and min c/r every continuation bet.

But this is not the case! Firstoff, a checkraise could mean so much more, and secondoff few will drop one pair to a c/r (esp. min checkraise)

Something to chew on.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I agree that they won't fold to the min c/r. I was merely demonstrating how cautiously they will play from then on by the point that I would fold to the min c/r here. I know that THEY will call it, but it is not the best way to get the money in because it will make them play cautiously and if you start betting big, they will fold one pair since you tipped them off to your strength by c/r the flop. That's why leading out and c/c is better, IMO, because it disguises your hand more. And if you insist on c/r then you should make it bigger so that at least you get more money in the pot in exchange for the info you give up. The min c/r therefore seems to me to be the worst option: it gives up the most info and gets the least money in the pot.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not that I'm not taking anyone's advice, I'd just like to have a deeper discussion of the hand. Thanks for your comments. I think that while the check-min-raise may set off warning bells in his head, he is likely to re-raise me in order to be sure, and that's what I'm after. A lot of people seem to have a great deal of trouble folding AA regardless of how loud the bells are ringing. Do you think a larger check-raise would be more deceptive?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a check-minraise is likely to set off warning bells then how is it going to also induce a reraise ??? Warning bells would indicate a call - not a reraise.

If you lead the flop - then he might raise - at which point you can push, and he cant be sure if you have a draw or a real hand. Or you can check-raise all-in which he might pay off if he has a proper hand, figuring you for a draw.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I think your check-raise was a good amount - about the size of the total pot (pot=28, your raise=26). Anything more is a gross overbet (which may induce a call for being so strange).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very incorrect. The pot is 28 + heros call (13) = 41. Thus hero, if he was making a pot raise would make it a total of 54 to go. 26 is less than half of this.

Hero made a raise that was less than 1/3 the size of the pot.

[intheflatfield]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people seem to have a great deal of trouble folding AA regardless of how loud the bells are ringing. Do you think a larger check-raise would be more deceptive?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you should be afraid to push him out with a larger check raise. Like you said, he is unlikely to lay down a big PP like AA to any bet/raise on the flop. However, like the previous poster said the mini ck/r might set off enough bells for him to just call you're raise, knowing that he may be facing 2 pair. He should suspect that you're not a draw, especially considering your call of his pfr.

The point being is I don't think you gain anything by the mini ck/raise that would justify letting him see the next card without a little more pain.

I think if you're going to ck raise, you have a chance to get him all in..if he feels like you're trying to bully him out of the pot. I see this all the time.