An interesting sitituation ..... - Page 5

jason_t · #41 09-02-2005, 02:02 PM

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Hero isn't drawing... he has the best hand right now.

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if we have 30% chance of winning we clearly don't have the best hand now.

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Don't be a nit; the meaning of the statement is clear.

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it's clear but also wrong

we are definitely drawing to safe outs here. it's an important distinction, I think. IMO the person I was responding to was being a nit.

and don't call me a nit

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Seriously, you're being a nit.

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no he's not. This has been discussed before ad nauseum on here in relation to the Matusow vs Raymer hand from the 2004 world series. No matter what way you try to twist it, the 98 is the best hand. 98 isnt drawing here, A2 is. Those who can't see that have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game.

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For crying out loud. We understand the difference between having the best hand currently and having the best draw. The meaning of the original statement was clear.

mmmmmbrother · #42 09-02-2005, 02:09 PM

if you play your hand as if you can see your opponets you win.

if your oppenent plays his hand as if he can see yours he wins.

everyones a winner!!

DMBFan23 · #43 09-02-2005, 02:20 PM

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For crying out loud. We understand the difference between having the best hand currently and having the best draw. The meaning of the original statement was clear.

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We understand the difference between having the best hand currently

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really? what does this mean? it seems to me it was used as a deterrent to folding, when it should have NO bearing. I know you know this, but to say it was useless to point out is meh.

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having the best draw

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again, this doesn't really mean a whole lot. what does this mean? most outs? you're drawing to the nuts? you aren't subject to redraws if you hit? again I know that YOU know the difference, but for others' sake.

JinX11 · #44 09-02-2005, 02:44 PM

Some of the responses this thread has generated signify a dark time for this site. I thought I had mistakenly stumbled into the WPT forum or something. Just wow. Is my sarcasm-detector really this [censored]?

jba · #45 09-02-2005, 02:50 PM

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For crying out loud. We understand the difference between having the best hand currently and having the best draw. The meaning of the original statement was clear.

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listen jason, a lot of people seem to be getting confused by this problem. I think adam was originally confused because he always thinks of things in turns of: if i'm ahead, I have an equity edge I should be betting/raising, and if I'm behind, I need to determine how my equity compares to the pot odds being offered. I truly think he was thrown off by this because he's thinking he's ahead so it's not about pot odds, yet knows he doesn't have an equity edge so what now.

perhaps it appeared that I was being a nit by the way that I answered or the spot I chose to jump in, but my point is that you really do need to look at this situation as though we are behind (because we are), and go from there.

Defining "best hand" as the hand that would win a showdown on the flop is completely and totally irrelevant to any decision made on the flop, and I really think it's causing people problems by thinking this way.

and I really don't understand what you are hoping to accomplish with your line of argument.

JinX11 · #46 09-02-2005, 03:06 PM

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Hero isn't drawing... he has the best hand right now.

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if we have 30% chance of winning we clearly don't have the best hand now.

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Um, wrong.

A-high beats 9-high. Hero has the best hand.

Adam

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Then you should have included an option for RAISE. You do raise when you have the better hand, right? So, therefore, we should cap the flop because we are ahead right now, right?

(No.)

arkady · #47 09-02-2005, 03:06 PM

are we still discussing this as if the cards were flipped up? if so, not much discussion.

but flipped down, i think its quite a dilemma if BB fires again on lets say a 3 turn.

#48 09-02-2005, 04:15 PM

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Defining "best hand" as the hand that would win a showdown on the flop is completely and totally irrelevant to any decision made on the flop, and I really think it's causing people problems by thinking this way.

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Correct. The value of a hand is determined by how many outs you have.

Phrasing examples:
You have Qh-Th, your opponent has Ac-As, and the board shows Ah-Kh-Jh-2c. You will win if you hit any of your 46 outs. The odds against you hitting your hand are 0:1 (100%).
You have Ac-Ad, your opponent has 8h-7c, and the board shows Ah-2h-5c-6c. You will win if you hit any of your 38 outs. The odds against you hitting your hand are 1:4.75 (82.6%).
You have Ad-2d, your opponents have Jh-Th and 7c-6c, and the board shows 9h-8h-Kc-3c. You will win if you hit any of your 16 outs. The odds against you hitting your hand are 1.875:1 (34.8%). *
You have 3c-2h, your opponent has Jc-Th, and the board shows Js-Tc-2s-3d. You will win if you hit any of your 4 outs. The odds against you hitting your hand are 10.5:1 (8.7%).

The starred example is one where you have a made hand but are behind. You need more than 23 outs on the turn to have the best hand.

jason_t · #49 09-02-2005, 04:41 PM

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For crying out loud. We understand the difference between having the best hand currently and having the best draw. The meaning of the original statement was clear.

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listen jason, a lot of people seem to be getting confused by this problem. I think adam was originally confused because he always thinks of things in turns of: if i'm ahead, I have an equity edge I should be betting/raising, and if I'm behind, I need to determine how my equity compares to the pot odds being offered. I truly think he was thrown off by this because he's thinking he's ahead so it's not about pot odds, yet knows he doesn't have an equity edge so what now.

perhaps it appeared that I was being a nit by the way that I answered or the spot I chose to jump in, but my point is that you really do need to look at this situation as though we are behind (because we are), and go from there.

Defining "best hand" as the hand that would win a showdown on the flop is completely and totally irrelevant to any decision made on the flop, and I really think it's causing people problems by thinking this way.

and I really don't understand what you are hoping to accomplish with your line of argument.

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Nice thoughtful post. Thank you.

XXXNoahXXX · #50 09-02-2005, 04:43 PM

Watching this post progress is like watchinga car accident. This has basically become the poker nerd's equivalent of a dick measuring contest. I really think that now that poker has gone mainstream 2+2ers have gotten validated in a sense, and its led to a lot more ego and posturing on these boards. The answer to the question seemed pretty clear, but I really enjoyed reading the mathematics that back the choice up. Thanks to everyone who contributed, there's actually some interesting posts mixed in with the nitpicking, etc. 2+2 is supposed to be a learning community, I hope people don't forget that.