It aint easy being a pimp but someone's gotta do it (LCish)

[4_2_it]

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Here are my thoughts, sir. I will never pass up on possible +EV situations because I don't trust my postflop skills enough.

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I am waiting to see evidence that it is +EV to call with 23s with one limper. So far, no one can show me any math. I am willing to concede I may be wrong, by I am not convinced it costs me any more than .1 PTBB by folding.


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If you think that you are making mistakes with certain hands, you should address them on an individual basis, when the problem hands arise.

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Agreed. I don't have problems with these hands because I do not play them. Again, if someone with 100k hands can show me they are positve in the sb with 50% VPiP you are advocating I am willing to consider that I may be wrong.

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I know for a fact that if you plan on playing higher stakes short handed and/or deep stacked, you will have to get comfortable with playing deceptive hands like small suited connectors and gappers, often OOP as well.

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We are not talking about high stakes, HU or deep stacks. This is SSNL. I play plenty of NL $200, some $400 and occassionl HU. Your points are valid, but the tactics that work at these levels will not be as effective at NL $10 and NL $25.

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I agree with you that many people at this level WILL make mistakes with the given hands, and tough decisions will come up, but thats poker. A good player takes advantage of those spots by making the right play, where a weaker player would have made that mistake. Instead of avoiding the situations, they should work on their post-flop play, post the hand they had trouble with, and get better at handling said situation.

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I just think that at this level, avoiding the chance to a make a mistake is better than developing bad habits. Why not perfect playing OOP withhands like AK and AA instead of 46 and 68? You can work on the same skills but in an environment where you still have a good chance to win even if you make a small mistake.

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As far as flops with small suited connectors and gappers, I am happy to see: two pair, trips, quads, boat, straight, flush, pair + flush draw, straight + flush draw, and often weaker draws that I get to hit cheap such as OESD, and flush. I play these hands for far more than for flopped nut straight value. And I WILL get action from people when I have them killed often enough to warrant completing and seeing a flop.

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Unless you flop a miracle any thinking villain is going to overcharge you to hit your draw and fold to your push when you do hit it. Maybe not at these levels, but it definitely happens at the 'higher' levels.

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My bottom line: Waiting for and only playing premium hands from these positions may work at these stakes, and may save you some difficult decisions postflop, but I feel that you are missing many +EV spots by doing this, and also missing the knowledge you could be gaining ,as far as postflop play and decision-making, while its still cheap.

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I think your arguments work much if we are are talking about limit where you are getting correct odds. I am not a big fan of calculating implied odds out of the blinds with 23 and 45 because who is going to pay you off when you hit?

I think your post is well thought and I enjoy the debate, but I hope we can agree that we are talking about something that has at most maybe a .1 or so impact in terms of PTBB?

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I am waiting to see evidence that it is +EV to call with 23s with one limper. So far, no one can show me any math. I am willing to concede I may be wrong, by I am not convinced it costs me any more than .1 PTBB by folding.

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When did I make any claim about 23s with 1 limper? You are taking a very far extreme of my point and illustrating it with a bad example.

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Agreed. I don't have problems with these hands because I do not play them. Again, if someone with 100k hands can show me they are positve in the sb with 50% VPiP you are advocating I am willing to consider that I may be wrong.

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I never claimed what the "right" VPIP from the small blind should be, so your 50% VPIP claim is unfounded.

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We are not talking about high stakes, HU or deep stacks. This is SSNL. I play plenty of NL $200, some $400 and occassionl HU. Your points are valid, but the tactics that work at these levels will not be as effective at NL $10 and NL $25.

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Tactics? On the contrary, people tend to overplay their hands more at these stakes, giving me much bigger payoffs in many more situations. The only thing that may go down is my fold equity on semi-bluffs with my huge draws, and I rarely care too much about that as they are often calling with hands I am a favorite against anyway.


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I just think that at this level, avoiding the chance to a make a mistake is better than developing bad habits. Why not perfect playing OOP withhands like AK and AA instead of 46 and 68? You can work on the same skills but in an environment where you still have a good chance to win even if you make a small mistake.

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Why not playing perfect OOP with ALL of the hands you mentioned? I think that is a much better goal to strive for. Passing up +EV situations because you aren't confident in your post-flop play = bad habit.

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Unless you flop a miracle any thinking villain is going to overcharge you to hit your draw and fold to your push when you do hit it. Maybe not at these levels, but it definitely happens at the 'higher' levels.

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It takes far less than a miracle flop. They can't really overcharge me when I am a favorite to win the hand on the flop and that is where all the money is going in, as is often the case with my big draws. The case is the same at the higher levels, except that my fold equity is often higher.



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I think your arguments work much if we are are talking about limit where you are getting correct odds. I am not a big fan of calculating implied odds out of the blinds with 23 and 45 because who is going to pay you off when you hit?

I think your post is well thought and I enjoy the debate, but I hope we can agree that we are talking about something that has at most maybe a .1 or so impact in terms of PTBB?

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Once again, the hands you list are on the extreme spectrum, while for arguing your side you use hands such as AA and KK. Lets look at a hand like 65s. Do you really think that it takes a miracle flop to get paid off with that hand? Do you think for example that you aren't going to make a good profit from an overplaying donkey at 25$ NL who has KJ or KQ on a board of K65? Or someone overplaying their 99 on a board of 652? Or perhaps a spot such as A34 with two of your suit, one being the ace, where you bet-3bet all in and get called by top pair? The situations are endless, and I think the impact is far more substantial than you may think.

Once again, avoiding the situations isn't going to help you get better at dealing with them. Getting better at dealing with the situations is, however, going to make you a better poker player.

Lead out with PSB on river