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#31
11-09-2005, 05:41 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Try giving an example where there is a hand that has been shown at showdown and there is an additional live hand that has not been tabled. That is the key, here there is a player with a live hand at showdown who has yet to act. Mucking is an action. [/ QUOTE ] Like I said I concede the point to you guys, I've just never seen anyone called out on it. It seems however that everyone now agrees that 1PTAH does not apply after action is complete with action meaning last hand is mucked or tabled not after the pot is awarded. [/ QUOTE ] Note in my ealier reply I repeatedly said "and the next deal has begun." Many rulebooks regard this as the point of no return. If a mistake was made in the award of a pot, incorrect ammount placed out for a call, misrepresented hand, or any other anomally has occurred in the play of a hand, action can be taken until the next deal has begun. Once the next deal is underway the previous hand is over. That is truly the mark of the end of one hand and the begining of the next. So to the letter of the law nothing should be said about the previous hand until this point. [/ QUOTE ] Can you give an example of where after all hands have been tabled or mucked it would be a prioblem for a player to comment on the hand before the next hand is dealt? I think you will really have to struglle to find such an example (not including making comments that are inappropriate when made at any time) 
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#32
11-09-2005, 05:45 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
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What if I turned my hand face-up on a 4-flush board and said, "you win I just have A-K" and another player remarked, "no you have the flush". [/ QUOTE ] This is an entirely different situation. Once a hand is tabled it is tabled and the best hand will win at showdown.
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#33
11-09-2005, 05:52 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
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Example 1: moot point in a tournament hands must be turned face up on the table once a player is all-in in a heads up pot. Cards are tabled, cards speak. Example 2: Again moot point since from your description all three players have tabled their hands so all three hands would be live, and cards speak. Example 3: Again has nothing to do with what we are discussing but an inactive player no longer in a pot should not reveal information about their hand. Player should be warned not to do this and action taken if he continues to do so. You have chosen three examples here that have zero relevance to what we are discussing. Try giving an example where there is a hand that has been shown at showdown and there is an additional live hand that has not been tabled. That is the key, here there is a player with a live hand at showdown who has yet to act. Mucking is an action. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Note in my ealier reply I repeatedly said "and the next deal has begun." Many rulebooks regard this as the point of no return. If a mistake was made in the award of a pot, incorrect ammount placed out for a call, misrepresented hand, or any other anomally has occurred in the play of a hand, action can be taken until the next deal has begun. Once the next deal is underway the previous hand is over. That is truly the mark of the end of one hand and the begining of the next. So to the letter of the law nothing should be said about the previous hand until this point. [/ QUOTE ] Well then by the letter of the law the first 2 examples I gave are certainly in violation of the 1PTAH rule. Although as you pointed out anything a player says would have zero relevance to the outcome of the hand.
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#34
11-09-2005, 08:14 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
This was a response to Kaeser's repeated claim that a hand is "over" when betting is completed. But if you would like an example of where this rule comes into play: Players A & B table there hands at a showdown. The dealer awards player A the pot, kills both hands and the board. It is then discovered that it should have been a split pot (say 2 pair with a shared board kicker). Player C (who was not involved in the hand) says wait it was a split pot, others at the table agree. Floor is called,he questions the table, determines that it was clearly a split pot, awards half the pot to player B. This is a fairly standard situation. In rulebooks I have seen this ruling would not be possible if the next hand has begun. Once the next hand begins no corrections in previous hands may be made. From Robert's Rules - Section 2 5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.
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#35
11-09-2005, 08:28 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
[ QUOTE ]
Well then by the letter of the law the first 2 examples I gave are certainly in violation of the 1PTAH rule. Although as you pointed out anything a player says would have zero relevance to the outcome of the hand. [/ QUOTE ] Well if you want to truly argue semantics there are multiple milestons that occur during the conclusion of a hand. -the completion of betting -the completion of the last action -the award of a pot -the completion of the deal marked by the beginning of the next deal At each of these points there are do's and don'ts. There are specific rules that utilize each of these points as governing moments of a hand. If you would like a better understanding of cardroom practices and rules I simply suggest you read Robert's Rules of Poker by Bob Ciaffone they are (IMO) the most well written and comprehensive set of cardroom rules available. They also contain some gems you may wish to equate yourself with: POKER ETIQUETTE The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator: Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot. Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete. Revealing the contents of a folded hand before the betting is complete. Do not divulge the contents of a hand during a deal even to someone not in the pot, so you do not leave any possibility of the information being transmitted to an active player. Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table. Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown.
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#38
11-09-2005, 11:01 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
[ QUOTE ]
This was a response to Kaeser's repeated claim that a hand is "over" when betting is completed. But if you would like an example of where this rule comes into play: Players A & B table there hands at a showdown. The dealer awards player A the pot, kills both hands and the board. It is then discovered that it should have been a split pot (say 2 pair with a shared board kicker). Player C (who was not involved in the hand) says wait it was a split pot, others at the table agree. Floor is called,he questions the table, determines that it was clearly a split pot, awards half the pot to player B. This is a fairly standard situation. In rulebooks I have seen this ruling would not be possible if the next hand has begun. Once the next hand begins no corrections in previous hands may be made. From Robert's Rules - Section 2 5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal. [/ QUOTE ] And so you put forth the example of a hand being mistakenly awarded, but that doesn't fit, because in that case a player who sees the mistake SHOULD speak up immediately. The hand is over because their is no more discretionary action at this point. The rule you cite is irrelevant to the discussion.
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#39
11-09-2005, 11:18 PM
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Re: Any eight will win!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Try giving an example where there is a hand that has been shown at showdown and there is an additional live hand that has not been tabled. That is the key, here there is a player with a live hand at showdown who has yet to act. Mucking is an action. [/ QUOTE ] Like I said I concede the point to you guys, I've just never seen anyone called out on it. It seems however that everyone now agrees that 1PTAH does not apply after action is complete with action meaning last hand is mucked or tabled not after the pot is awarded. [/ QUOTE ] Note in my ealier reply I repeatedly said "and the next deal has begun." Many rulebooks regard this as the point of no return. If a mistake was made in the award of a pot, incorrect ammount placed out for a call, misrepresented hand, or any other anomally has occurred in the play of a hand, action can be taken until the next deal has begun. Once the next deal is underway the previous hand is over. That is truly the mark of the end of one hand and the begining of the next. So to the letter of the law nothing should be said about the previous hand until this point. [/ QUOTE ] Can you give an example of where after all hands have been tabled or mucked it would be a prioblem for a player to comment on the hand before the next hand is dealt? I think you will really have to struglle to find such an example (not including making comments that are inappropriate when made at any time) [/ QUOTE ] The board plays. Some players turn up their hands some players chose to muck. The players that muck are not entitled to any of the pot becsaue they have not made a claim to the pot (note this is differenet than someoen stating "I play the board" and then throwing away their cards).
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#40
11-10-2005, 06:56 AM
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Re: Any eight will win!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Try giving an example where there is a hand that has been shown at showdown and there is an additional live hand that has not been tabled. That is the key, here there is a player with a live hand at showdown who has yet to act. Mucking is an action. [/ QUOTE ] Like I said I concede the point to you guys, I've just never seen anyone called out on it. It seems however that everyone now agrees that 1PTAH does not apply after action is complete with action meaning last hand is mucked or tabled not after the pot is awarded. [/ QUOTE ] Note in my ealier reply I repeatedly said "and the next deal has begun." Many rulebooks regard this as the point of no return. If a mistake was made in the award of a pot, incorrect ammount placed out for a call, misrepresented hand, or any other anomally has occurred in the play of a hand, action can be taken until the next deal has begun. Once the next deal is underway the previous hand is over. That is truly the mark of the end of one hand and the begining of the next. So to the letter of the law nothing should be said about the previous hand until this point. [/ QUOTE ] Can you give an example of where after all hands have been tabled or mucked it would be a prioblem for a player to comment on the hand before the next hand is dealt? I think you will really have to struglle to find such an example (not including making comments that are inappropriate when made at any time) [/ QUOTE ] The board plays. Some players turn up their hands some players chose to muck. The players that muck are not entitled to any of the pot becsaue they have not made a claim to the pot (note this is differenet than someoen stating "I play the board" and then throwing away their cards). [/ QUOTE ] Why would it be a problem to comment at this point now that all the players have either mucked or tabled their hands?
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