Ehitcs revisted

[chezlaw]

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There are things we want. These are our values,

[/ QUOTE ] Do you wish to make a case that both values and desires are good compasses for ethical actions, or only values, or do you wish to use them interchangeably?

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I think its useful to label somethng as ethical and others not. I'm choosing what music to listen, no-one else is affected, it doesn't make much sense to call it an ethical decision.

I'm not sure of the best definition (do you have something in mind?) maybe anything that affects the well-being of others

chez

[chezlaw]

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How do you know if you are happy?

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There are things we want. These are our values, I'm not sure happiness is a very helpful term. Things are good if they are what we value.

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I should rephrase the question, then.

How do YOU (and Doug) know if something makes you happy, how do you know if you value something, how do you know what things you want. In other words, what criteria do you use to measure whatever it is you think is your prime critera of "goodness".

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Tough question. Part of life is learning what you want from it. The answer is possibly easy but very unsatisfying. At any point in our life, what we want is what we think we want.

Sadly at later points we realise that what we wanted before isn't what we would have wanted if we had known then what we know now.


chez

[DougShrapnel]

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This is kinda the question that I'm asking. Which values are worthy of ethics, which values are good for me to pursue. It's easy to just say do what makes you happy, and I do, but are my goals worth purseuing? Which values are the ones that people should consume(internalize) if they wish to act ethically?

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I'm not entirely sure we're talking about the same thing... but for sake of discussion, I'll assume that we're on the same page. And that when I ask "what things make me happy", or actually "how do I know that I'm happy", "how do I measure happiness"... it's the same as you asking which values are worthy of ethics. How do I determine worthiness? Something is "worth" something to me, if it increases my happiness. So, I'm back to how do I know if I'm increasing my happiness. What measure or criteria do I use to determine this? I know why people like having the Bible tell them the answers... because there may not be a right or wrong answer. But, I'm not sure.

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Kip, I think that one can know happiness in the physical manifestation of happiness. A smile, a passionate embrace, a spring in your step, and also your happiness spreads to others around you, thus a good measure of your own happiness is how happy those around you are. I try to carry my own weather with me. So that I am always joyful, It doesn't matter what is thrown at me, I'm going just be happy. Sometimes I forget my plan, and I thank you and purnell for reminding me.

As far as if we where speaking on the same terms, I think there is a similarity between what you are asking and what I wish to say. I’m trying to find that similarity instead of focusing on things I might disagree with, like happiness is the goal or measurer of ethics. Then again, you may wish for me to say “It’s just a feeling”. Being happy is a choice, choosing to be happy instead of bitter is an ethical choice. Part of it is the company you keep. Part of it is the goals you undertake. Part of it is your outlook on life. Part of it is the intense human relationships that you experience. Happiness can be arrived at out of sheer will, selecting good company, accomplishing a goal, helping other people, or any sort of destructive pleasure, and any combination of these things and more. I am not a master of happiness but I wish to become one. Not like the stoics who would toss it aside as a foolish and faulty reaction. But instead as a human, embrace it and act with happiness in my heart, and thoughts. To treat happiness not as an objective that I only get as a reward for taking away things that I don’t want to be there, or by adding things that I do want, but as a description of self, consumed inward, and radiated outward. No amount of desires gained can make you happy. You just are happy. If you search outside yourself for it, your journey will be long and fruitless. If you look within you will see it, right there, waiting for you to act with.

Perhaps we are thinking of 2 different things, I'm not sure. It seeems that happiness has different perspectives with which one can examine it. We can look at the pleasure centers of the brain, we can go with our feelings, we can look at the physical manifestations of it, or if we wish we can give it levels and complexity. That doesn't mean that a particular pespective of happiness is more correct than the other, it's just that people aren't gonna see eye to eye on it that often.

Nice post. I agree. The only reason I wouldn't use the pleasure center, is because sometimes we make decisions for our long-term happiness, so our current state of pleasure might be quite low. Like a root canal, for instance. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm glad to see such an Objectivist be so open about their happiness. Most of them seem so stoic, you know? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think we all agree... and we live our lives, as best we can, to try to be happy. Relationships are a big part of that, so making other people happy is a very good way to increase your own happiness.

I just lost 3 tourneys... I'm not too happy right now. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

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Nice post. I agree. The only reason I wouldn't use the pleasure center, is because sometimes we make decisions for our long-term happiness, so our current state of pleasure might be quite low. Like a root canal, for instance.

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You're saying that the pleasure center is what counts but you have to maximise pleasure over your whole life not just do what gives the most pleasure at any moment.

Imagine a drug that offers a lifetime of happiness. Taking the drug means you will spend the rest of your life in a hospital bed, doing nothing, extremely happy until you die a peaceful death.

The drug offers far more pleasure than you could possibly hope for if you dont take the drug.

Would you take it?

chez

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Imagine a drug that offers a lifetime of happiness. Taking the drug means you will spend the rest of your life in a hospital bed, doing nothing, extremely happy until you die a peaceful death.

The drug offers far more pleasure than you could possibly hope for if you dont take the drug.

Would you take it?

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I don't see how I could be happy spending the rest of my life in a hospital bed. I've thought about "The Matrix", though... and if I were given the opportunity to take the "blue pill", so to speak, to have the chance to live inside of a virtual paradise, forever happy... or take a "red pill", which would wake me up from the illusion, and put me in the real world... only, I would be far less happy there, perhaps even suffering... then which would I do? Truth or Happiness. If it were that simple of a question, then I would take Happiness over Truth. But, in the real world, it seems that most of the time Truth is a very useful tool in achieving/maintaining happiness.

[chezlaw]

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Imagine a drug that offers a lifetime of happiness. Taking the drug means you will spend the rest of your life in a hospital bed, doing nothing, extremely happy until you die a peaceful death.

The drug offers far more pleasure than you could possibly hope for if you dont take the drug.

Would you take it?

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I don't see how I could be happy spending the rest of my life in a hospital bed. I've thought about "The Matrix", though... and if I were given the opportunity to take the "blue pill", so to speak, to have the chance to live inside of a virtual paradise, forever happy... or take a "red pill", which would wake me up from the illusion, and put me in the real world... only, I would be far less happy there, perhaps even suffering... then which would I do? Truth or Happiness. If it were that simple of a question, then I would take Happiness over Truth. But, in the real world, it seems that most of the time Truth is a very useful tool in achieving/maintaining happiness.

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If I may say, thats a bit of a cop out. Its a pretty easy thought experimment to imagine a drug (or machine) that feeds the pleasure center, removes concern about the external world and keeps you alive for a 'lifetime'. Like a very powerful but sustainable morphine high.

It wouldn't be particularly surprising if such a thing became possible in the next few thousand years.

Obviously you might not take the offer because you think its a con of some sort, but if you knew it was genuine how could you not take it?

chez

The only way I WOULDN'T take the happy pill is if I believed that happiness was not the end goal. I don't believe it necessarily is. Although many of my friends are on Prozac type drugs and claim to get substantial relief from them, I would rather stubbornly battle through on my own. Why? Because I have found that happiness in and of itself is not the most important thing to me. Happiness can be overrated. So can misery.

g

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Imagine a drug that offers a lifetime of happiness. Taking the drug means you will spend the rest of your life in a hospital bed, doing nothing, extremely happy until you die a peaceful death.

The drug offers far more pleasure than you could possibly hope for if you dont take the drug.

Would you take it?

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I don't see how I could be happy spending the rest of my life in a hospital bed. I've thought about "The Matrix", though... and if I were given the opportunity to take the "blue pill", so to speak, to have the chance to live inside of a virtual paradise, forever happy... or take a "red pill", which would wake me up from the illusion, and put me in the real world... only, I would be far less happy there, perhaps even suffering... then which would I do? Truth or Happiness. If it were that simple of a question, then I would take Happiness over Truth. But, in the real world, it seems that most of the time Truth is a very useful tool in achieving/maintaining happiness.

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If I may say, thats a bit of a cop out. Its a pretty easy thought experimment to imagine a drug (or machine) that feeds the pleasure center, removes concern about the external world and keeps you alive for a 'lifetime'. Like a very powerful but sustainable morphine high.

It wouldn't be particularly surprising if such a thing became possible in the next few thousand years.

Obviously you might not take the offer because you think its a con of some sort, but if you knew it was genuine how could you not take it?

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Happiness. I thought I answered the question. Now, it would be more difficult if the people in my current relationships would not choose or be able to also take the "happy pill", and would be very unhappy by me doing it. If I thought I would be causing more unhappiness than the happiness I would have by taking the pill, then I wouldn't take it. I think there would be better ways for me to be happy -- even if not AS happy, without causing unnecessary unhappiness to my loved ones.

I'm not one to cop out. I thought I answered your question. Now, your turn. What would you do? Red pill & truth... possible unhappiness. Or blue pill, and guaranteed happiness?

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I have found that happiness in and of itself is not the most important thing to me. Happiness can be overrated.

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1) What is the most important thing to you?
2) Why is that the most important thing to you?