Cards in the muck - dead hand? - Page 4

bernie · #31 10-17-2005, 01:14 AM

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In this case it was never Player A's intention to relinquish his hand. I don't see why you are willing to give Player B the benefit of the doubt on his intent, but don't think the intent of player A matters.

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Nothing to do with intent. It has to do with player A not protecting his hand.

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Suppose two players come to showdown. Player 1 shows his hand player 2 announces a better hand and tosses his cards towards the center of the table in a manner that appears they will land faceup, but the cards bounce and one card lands face down touching the mucking .. . . The dealer is100% certain which card it is? Do you have problem with the dealer flipping it face up and awarding the pot to Player 2?

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In the room I play, the dealer can't turn up the down faced card. For instance, if a player tables his hand, showing only 1 card, the dealer can't turn over the other one. The player has to.

b

juanez · #32 10-17-2005, 06:46 AM

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In the room I play, the dealer can't turn up the down faced card. For instance, if a player tables his hand, showing only 1 card, the dealer can't turn over the other one. The player has to.

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So true. In my first week of dealing ever, my manager was standing there watching. A player tabled her cards at the showdown, but they hit my hand while I was gathering a players folded cards. They landed face down, so I grabbed them and flipped them face up - they were the winner.

My manager took me aside between downs and told me "You flip over a players cards again and I'll rip your nuts off."

Even WORSE than getting kicked in the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

#33 10-17-2005, 07:08 AM

So how would you have ruled it if his intention was to make the crying-call? It may have been obvious that he was going to fold but there is no way you or the dealer could have been 100% sure about what he was going to do. Player A should have held onto his cards until player B mucked or said "fold." "You got it man," is not action and is not completely clear. Sure, he probably meant "You got it man, I fold." But he could have also meant, "You got it man. You got the flush, but I have to call so that I can sleep tonight." The only words that should be really binding are fold, bet, raise, etc. "You got it man" should mean nothing until he tosses his hand in.
If a dealer accidentally scoops up an unprotected hand and puts it in the muck it will be dead no matter what. His intention was to play of course but that doesnt mean he is going to get his cards back even if the cards are identifiable, unless it's a home game or a really lax casino. Always protect your cards until the pot gets shipped to you. Why go about it any other way? It is a lesson that people have to learn.
I think that you are setting a dangerous precedent with that ruling.

private joker · #34 10-17-2005, 07:21 AM

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Never in a million years is "you got it man" going to be a verbal/binding declaration of a fold.

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I'm just interrupting to say that Xellos's "They Live" avatar is the coolest one I've seen in months. I'm not worthy, etc.

Rick Nebiolo · #35 10-17-2005, 08:11 AM

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"Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.Every effort will be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of any misinformation given by another player."

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Late to this thread and I agree with your ruling. I've bolded text above that appears to be an improvement over what is found in a recent rulebook from LA. Can you tell me where this rule/rulebook is from?

~ Rick

#36 10-17-2005, 08:25 AM

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Suppose two players come to showdown. Player 1 shows his hand player 2 announces a better hand and tosses his cards towards the center of the table in a manner that appears they will land faceup, but the cards bounce and one card lands face down touching the mucking .. . . The dealer is100% certain which card it is? Do you have problem with the dealer flipping it face up and awarding the pot to Player 2?

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In the room I play, the dealer can't turn up the down faced card. For instance, if a player tables his hand, showing only 1 card, the dealer can't turn over the other one. The player has to.

b

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What you have described is true, but it is a different scenario. As a dealer I would never turn over a card in the situation you described, but I do not even hesitate to turn back over a card that was tossed face up and inadvertantly flipped over.

Randy_Refeld · #37 10-17-2005, 12:04 PM

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If a dealer accidentally scoops up an unprotected hand and puts it in the muck it will be dead no matter what. His intention was to play of course but that doesnt mean he is going to get his cards back even if the cards are identifiable,

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This is not true. If they were face up he gets them back. If there are merely touching the muck as opposed to being in the muck he gets them back. To truly be "in the muck" means the dealer properly mucked them and there is no way to retrieve his cards.

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"You got it man," is not action and is not completely clear. Sure, he probably meant "You got it man, I fold." But he could have also meant, "You got it man. You got the flush, but I have to call so that I can sleep tonight." The only words that should be really binding are fold, bet, raise, etc. "You got it man" should mean nothing until he tosses his hand in.

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Saying this is not a binding action, unless it unduces action on the table.

Ulysses · #38 10-17-2005, 12:44 PM

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Player A's cards are dead. Player B wins the hand.

A case could be made if he tossed his hand face up.

Some lessons cost some players a pot to learn.

b

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You are completely off the mark here, bernie.

Because Player A's cards are retrievable, they should be retrieved and if he has the best hand, he wins.

If Player A's cards were NOT retrievable, he should win automatically.

Black Aces 518 · #39 10-17-2005, 12:59 PM

"Player A's cards are dead. Player B wins the hand.

A case could be made if he tossed his hand face up."

With verbal action in turn being binding, I think "you got it, man" is a fold. Anyway, the cards may be brought back if easily identifiable and given the angle shot by Player B, giving him the pot is atrocious.

Ulysses · #40 10-17-2005, 01:04 PM

As usual, I agree 100% with Randy.