Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question) - Page 4

MrWookie47 · #31 10-06-2005, 01:52 PM

Neither do I. That's a pretty obvious check. And I'd consider raising preflop depending on the table and such.

LoaferGee12 · #32 11-10-2005, 07:06 PM

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Taken from this post.

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Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets...,

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This needs a bump. I'm usually betting here but after reading posts here and actually thinking about it, the bet makes no sense. Check-call on the flop seems fine, but I'm not sure what to do what the rest of the hand. Any ideas?

Guruman · #33 11-10-2005, 08:11 PM

it was bumpd, so I'll bite.

utg limps, hero limps utg + 1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], mp raises, all fold to bb who calls, limpers call.

flop:

6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb checks, utg checks, hero bets hoping mp will raise. The plan is to check/call the rest of the way if other players fold and no A or K falls. In essence, manufacturing a WA/WB situation.

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and here's one from late position:

2 limpers, hero limps mp3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], co raises, all fold to limpers, all limpers call.

flop:

6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checked to hero who bets hoping co will raise.

my thinking here: We want co to raise for a couple of reasons:

1)we may have the best hand if he raised with suited overcards, and we want to chase others out of the pot now.

2)our draw is potentially dominated by a limper holding a Jack. with just CO in the pot with us, we're less afraid of hitting the low end of our OESD and still not having the best hand.

the co will have to raise here with just about any reasonable holding. overcards will have to raise to chase out limpers who have drawing hands. If CO has big diamonds, he'll raise anyway to get a free card on the turn. big pairs autoraise here.

essentially, betting the flop here makes the turn and river play themselves. checking and calling vs 3 opponents is giving ourselves outs to lose a hand we may be leading.

Aaron W. · #34 11-11-2005, 02:06 AM

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it was bumpd, so I'll bite.

utg limps, hero limps utg + 1 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], mp raises, all fold to bb who calls, limpers call.

flop:

6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

bb checks, utg checks, hero bets hoping mp will raise. The plan is to check/call the rest of the way if other players fold and no A or K falls. In essence, manufacturing a WA/WB situation.

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1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

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and here's one from late position:

2 limpers, hero limps mp3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], co raises, all fold to limpers, all limpers call.

flop:

6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checked to hero who bets hoping co will raise.

my thinking here: We want co to raise for a couple of reasons:

1)we may have the best hand if he raised with suited overcards, and we want to chase others out of the pot now.

2)our draw is potentially dominated by a limper holding a Jack. with just CO in the pot with us, we're less afraid of hitting the low end of our OESD and still not having the best hand.

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1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

Guruman · #35 11-11-2005, 04:34 PM

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1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

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1)if mp raises here a naked six will probably have to fold, and any unpaired or unstraighted flush draw will also have to fold. A non-spade ten will occasionally fold. If I succeed in getting headsup, then I'm not nearly as worried about villain having a 6 or T. I worry about aces, kings, and spades.

2)semi-read dependant, but leading out can't stand a raise, and villain has raised both opportunities so far.

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1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

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1)hmm, i guess I set that one up a little funny. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It looks like we're only really worried about JQ, and J7 in addition to the diamonds from the limpers. I still want the diamonds out of the pot though, and I don't want a naked ten to even pick up that draw on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

2)thanks!

#36 11-11-2005, 04:52 PM

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I used to think about betting into preflop raisers to protect my 2nd pair or whatever, but I don't think it's a good plan. You are hoping he raises a hand worse than yours, and most opponents won't do that. They call if you're ahead, and they raise if they have you whooped, at least if we don't have TPTK or better. I'm starting to check these more, evaluate the action, and typically call and reevaluate on the turn.

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Can it not be worth it anyway? If you make somebody incorrectly fold 3 pair or a gutshot draw. Then when you make two pair+ you win the pot instead of losing to some other drawer. I am not saying we can do this vs every opponent but vs a guy who will raise with pretty much anything; not just TP+.

Aaron W. · #37 11-11-2005, 05:09 PM

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1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

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1)if mp raises here a naked six will probably have to fold, and any unpaired or unstraighted flush draw will also have to fold. A non-spade ten will occasionally fold. If I succeed in getting headsup, then I'm not nearly as worried about villain having a 6 or T. I worry about aces, kings, and spades.

2)semi-read dependant, but leading out can't stand a raise, and villain has raised both opportunities so far.

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I don't know where you get your optimism. Top pair is not folding for two bets on the flop. Two bets on the turn... maybe.

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1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

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1)hmm, i guess I set that one up a little funny. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It looks like we're only really worried about JQ, and J7 in addition to the diamonds from the limpers. I still want the diamonds out of the pot though, and I don't want a naked ten to even pick up that draw on the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

2)thanks!

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Again with the optimism... Dimaonds aren't leaving.

The reason the bet here is okay is because you have a decent amount of equity if you happen to get raised by a better hand. In the 55 example, you're royally screwed if you don't have the best hand.

Nick Moore · #38 11-11-2005, 05:13 PM

I'm thinking that it's likely hero's beat here right now, and if there's a caller to the raiser's bet, we are drawing to maybe 2 outs. I think the hero can probably pick better spots to contest a pot. If it somehow checks around, a bet out on a non scary turn card is the only time to put more money in this pot. Otherwise, I'd usually check/fold this flop in my game.

Nick Moore · #39 11-11-2005, 05:25 PM

If you check call, you let everyone else in cheaply, betting into a raise will bring it to 13.5/2, gutshots are no longer profitable, and we know we can draw to 2 pair or our backdoor flush, so why not protect our draw? Anyone decide to 3 bet, and we have even more info. I say bet.

#40 11-11-2005, 05:54 PM

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In both your examples you have excellent relative position in regards to the PFR, ie he is on your immediate left. You can use this to your advantage in two ways if it is a passive table. You will almost always be acting last so the possibilities of a raise behind you are slim, therefore letting you see the Turn with marginal hands cheaply. You can also use him to knock players out if you so desire by betting into him hoping that he raises.
This is another excellent example why you want to have TAGs on your left.

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Another beautiful quote from Adsman.

In addition, I will bet into the PFR if my top pair is Q preferably J or lower.
It is much easier for the PFR to have just overcards and raise, clearing up outs for a vulnerable hand.

AJ on an ATT board. A9 on an A83 board. If you're ahead, the chances of being drawn out on are very slim. There's no reason to face the field with two cold. Let the PFR bet his or your hand, face the field with one and let them pad the pot.

99 on a K55 board. Why bet this? Check and see what happens.
The PFR will bet his hand on this board regardless, if he gets overcalls it will be hard to continue.

If the board was J55, the bet becomes a lot easier. The reason is that the PFR is MUCH more likely to have and raise just overcards. And if your hand is good, it is very easily drawn out on. Facing the field with 2 cold, clears up a lot of outs.