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#32
09-28-2005, 07:39 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] There cannot be an event occuring outside of the universal cosmic laws. Any event which purports to be such is a matter of lack of knowledge by individual men which can of course transform to lack of knowledge of sects, groups, etc. [/ QUOTE ] You are begging the question. [/ QUOTE ] No I'm not.You explain. carlo [/ QUOTE ] Your argument against the occurance of miracles assumes that miracles do not occur. 
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#33
09-28-2005, 07:41 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
To readers who have not read the book (it really is a remake of an older book, a few of the particulars were changed in the newer version), let me give you a quick synopsis of the story and tell you how it ends (the newer version).
A wise (genius) man starts promulgating a basic concept. He goes around preaching his Message for a brief moment in time. He talks mainly in riddles and examples. Often his language is vague (sometimes indecipherable.) Always concise. The Message is a pretty good idea and thought provoking. While he is still around sermonizing, he starts to gather a following. He also starts to gather critics. The followers and the critics sometimes get into heated discussions of this man’s main idea. Before anything can really be decided to the satisfaction of both sides, the man ends his tour. He bids adieu and walks into the sunset. Leaving his followers with more questions and his critics still talking about nuances of what he said. There is hope for his return. His second appearance. Most probably this will not happen soon. (He is not unlike Seinfeld, either, in this regard. ) His followers continue to spread his Message. His critics still argue its point. Both agree there is more to be said about it. And there is and so they do. In the original book - the Hero comes back in 3 days after his original departure. Chats with his followers, clears up a few things and splits. The newer version, I think, he does not. What is agreed by both sides is that they are all delighted to have heard him speak and have had the opportunity to chat with him. Both versions of the book are good. I prefer the Original. But, it is also not unlike Godfather I And II. Either movie has great moments. Arguments could be made for both movies being the better one. Indeed, Godfather II is quite an accomplishment (which most often is not the case for sequels) . Personally, I feel that even though Pacino is one of the best, Brando is still a hard act to follow.
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#34
09-28-2005, 08:33 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
"Your argument against the occurance of miracles assumes that miracles do not occur."
No, I'm trying to be clear as possible.If the creator does indeed present us with universal cosmic laws does HE break his own laws? This sounds like the Greek Olympus where Zeus,Appolo,etc. have human characteristics. I could see Zeus changing his mind and acting directly in the affairs of men. I could see these gods choosing a side in the Trojan war. . I believe the rest of my post absolutely states that these events do occur and that the Bible is absolutely true. I see this type of event pointing to a spiritual reality of which we can learn and thus broaden our being. Who moves the sun? carlo
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#35
09-28-2005, 09:12 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
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If the creator does indeed present us with universal cosmic laws does HE break his own laws? [/ QUOTE ] If God is the one that governs the natural laws of the universe, wouldn't it follow that only God could suspend those laws? As to the rest of your message...I didn't really get it. That's probably because I'm dense. Oh well.
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#36
09-28-2005, 10:41 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
"If God is the one that governs the natural laws of the universe, wouldn't it follow that only God could suspend those laws?"
This is the real problem--can we lay any attributes on the Creator? An interesting read is Dionysus the Areopagite who reaches to the spiritual world by negating all human qualities which one may lay on the Divine One. IsHE Justice? negate this and work beyond human justice. Is HE the Light. negate and work beyond human concepts. etc. I don't quite have this right but this is the method of an early Christian mystic to reach the Godhead.By using his thinking he arrives to a spiritual realm. Dionysus was converted by Paul and I believe this is pictured in the Acts of the Apostles. Dionysus is quite often referred to in the works of Thomas Aquinas. The works of Rudolf Steiner would help in the understanding of spiritual realities. carlo
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#37
09-29-2005, 06:51 PM
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Re: Its MIRACLES- Not High Falootin First Cause Debate
[ QUOTE ]
"If God is the one that governs the natural laws of the universe, wouldn't it follow that only God could suspend those laws?" This is the real problem--can we lay any attributes on the Creator? An interesting read is Dionysus the Areopagite who reaches to the spiritual world by negating all human qualities which one may lay on the Divine One. IsHE Justice? negate this and work beyond human justice. Is HE the Light. negate and work beyond human concepts. etc. I don't quite have this right but this is the method of an early Christian mystic to reach the Godhead.By using his thinking he arrives to a spiritual realm. Dionysus was converted by Paul and I believe this is pictured in the Acts of the Apostles. Dionysus is quite often referred to in the works of Thomas Aquinas. The works of Rudolf Steiner would help in the understanding of spiritual realities. carlo [/ QUOTE ] What in the world are you talking about? I've gone back and read most of your posts over the last couple of months to see if I can maybe get an understanding of where you are coming from and what you are talking about. I'm at a loss. The only thing I can figure is you like the writings of a dude named Rudolf Steiner. None of the rest of it seems to make much sense.
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