is a weak-tight personality good for No Limit?

[barongreenback]

On this forum terms like weak-tight, rock, lag etc. are all used emotively and this must hinder a rational analysis of playing styles.

I sure that understanding the effects of different styles on yourself and others is a key question determining long term success which the majority of posters (inc. myself) have not experienced. I'm not using 'long term' in its usual 50k hands/100k hands/whatever defeats variance, sense. In the true long term, small changes in win rate may not be the main factor. Consider the potential damage of overconfidence and boredom caused by winning consistently for 5 or 10 years.

I imagine that many loooonng term winners have seen players 'better' than themselves come and go.

James

[2ndGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
especially if your multi-tabling for 30-40hrs a week

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I have no freaking clue how any of you do this at no limit tables. I can manage at limit, but the burnout/tilt from multi-tabling no limit was a big reason why I focused completely on limit (and of course the fact that it used to be hard to find a NL game with bigger than 1/2 blinds online, and before that, finding any NL game at all). Now I wish I had kept up with the no limit side of things but I must admit I'm puzzled in games where I say "bet" and they ask "how much?"

2nd

[Noo Yawk]

"people talk about how the best players are fearless and not scared, etc."

The best players/leaders/people are level headed, especially when things aren't going as planned.

"but ive never seen a LAG player that didnt tilt, and tilt badly at times."

Most LAG's that tilt do so because they put themselves in situations they didn't think through properly. There are plenty of tough situations in poker that came up naturally. Why the hell some people force the issue, I'll never understand.

"there are plenty good weak-tight players that play scared (or extra cautious) that never tilt."

They also never move too far forward. Nothing wrong with that, if it's your goal.

"id estimate that if i played my A game(stopped tilting), my winrate could be 50% higher."

Based on your posts, If you learned to let trouble come to you, as it naturally will, and stayed calm enough to make rational decisions, I'd say your're win rate could be more than 50% higher.

[rwanger]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet, and maybe it's obvious...but can you really play effective LAG at so many tables? It seems to me that it would be easy to play tight at many tables simultaneously beause you don't need a read on your opponents. When you're LAGGing it up, you need to be paying attention to how people are playing, and how they view you.

Although I suppose if you could play optimal LAG at 3 tables, and optimal tight at 6 tables...the tight would make more money, right?

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of you may know that I play what I call TAG, but what most of you would call a rock. Im at about 16/4.5 with a 4.0 aggression factor.

I find myself in alot less marginal situations in big pots than most of you guys probably do because I normally have a better starting hand. This may or may not be more profitable, but it definatley gives me less variance which I like.

I will admit though that I still tilt now and then. I was thinking about this driving to work today. I had my best month ever this month, but still, just off the top of my head I can think of about $4K that I lost in what I would call tilt losses.

At least 4-5 times I had a tough hand where I got raised and was thinking "damn it, I cant be beat again here" And as I was sliding the little slider thing all the way to the right, I knew it was a mistake but did it anyway.

I can only imagine how often I would do that if I played more LAG style and was in these marginal spots more often.

My goal for next month is to fold even more than normal.

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You raise an interesting point. I play tighter than you (13/3.8 with a 3.1 agression) and I suspect the tighter you play the tougher it is to take when you find yourself in a series of "damn it, I can't be beat AGAIN" situations. There is a balance with increasing tables though.

[bkholdem]

[ QUOTE ]
No one seems to have mentioned this yet, and maybe it's obvious...but can you really play effective LAG at so many tables? It seems to me that it would be easy to play tight at many tables simultaneously beause you don't need a read on your opponents. When you're LAGGing it up, you need to be paying attention to how people are playing, and how they view you.

Although I suppose if you could play optimal LAG at 3 tables, and optimal tight at 6 tables...the tight would make more money, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine that one can play a lot more than 6 tables weak-tight, rockish. I just started playing 5 (up from 4) on a laptop with significant overlap (seeing only the bottom 2 inches of the 3rd table, 2 inches of 1/2 of the bottom of the 4th, and 1/2 inch of the side of the fifth) . Playing 8 on 2 screens with no overlap must be easier than that, with 12 on 3 screens, no overlap, not too far behind.

[IHateCats]

Firstly, you're letting ego get in the way of analyzing your opponents, most of the regular good tight players at the 10/20 Party games (which from what I can tell is your regular game) aren’t weak/tight, their post flop aggression #'s are actually pretty high so tight/aggressive is more accurate and you'll play better against them if think about them that way. Failing to admit your opponent is skilled but plays a different style than you do is foolish. Admit that your TAG opponents have their own strengths and know what they are and where those stengths have the most value (ie 10 handed tables). Being fearless is one thing, foolishly ignoring your opponents style & likley holdings at a 10 handed table is another altogether. As for tilting, it’s a huge weakness whether it’s you or even Spirit Rock, a lot of Spirit Rock’s supposed tilting seems to simply be him using his enormous bankroll against an under bankrolled opponent to break him via variance HU, if you are tilting in 3-5 handed games, I'm sure it's killing your winrate.

TAG’s are very effective at taking money off of the weaker players and their style allows them to play a large # of tables. NL is just as much about not making big mistakes as it is about making plays and it's a lot easier to avoid making big mistakes with the tight/aggressive style even 4-8 tabling than it is playing LAG. I’ve an enormous # of hands in PT and frankly the 4 of the top 5 players who’ve taken the most out of the Party full ring games since they’ve opened up 5/10 NL and 10/20 NL are all TAG’s who combine a decent to good winrate with playing a ton of hands. It works and those players aren’t there for your respect, they are there for the $ and some of them are very good at getting it. Could you make more emulating their strategy? Possibly but one thing that characterizes successful TAG players is they rarely tilt and have solid control, you may not be able to do this, many LAG's can't. You’re probably better off focusing on your strengths, I have absolutely no doubts that you are a fearsome short handed player when you play your A game and that can be a huge $ maker if you do it well and fix your leaks.

Do you really focus on game selection or do you let your ego tell you that you can run over every game? As far as I can tell game selection and changing gears are the most underrated skills in this forum but both can make a huge difference in winrate. The regular TAGs on Party 10/20 are not going to be run over by a known LAG, they are simply too experienced and trying to run over a game with 2-3 tough TAG’s at a 10 handed table is a truly bad strategy, especially if they have position on you or you aren’t all deep stacked with several times the buyin. Do you leave a short handed game that’s turned into a full ring game that has several known good players and no easily identifiable fish? Do you not sit down in a seat because after looking at the players ahead and behind your position, you decide it’s a crappy seat even though it might be a good table? You’re likely better off playing the 9 handed sites if LAG is your only gear and you don’t focus on 6 max or short handed 10/20 party games and have the discipline to keep looking for better games when they fill up.

[Lucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, you're letting ego get in the way of analyzing your opponents, most of the regular good tight players at the 10/20 Party games (which from what I can tell is your regular game) aren’t weak/tight, their post flop aggression #'s are actually pretty high so tight/aggressive is more accurate and you'll play better against them if think about them that way. Failing to admit your opponent is skilled but plays a different style than you do is foolish. Admit that your TAG opponents have their own strengths and know what they are and where those stengths have the most value (ie 10 handed tables). Being fearless is one thing, foolishly ignoring your opponents style & likley holdings at a 10 handed table is another altogether. As for tilting, it’s a huge weakness whether it’s you or even Spirit Rock, a lot of Spirit Rock’s supposed tilting seems to simply be him using his enormous bankroll against an under bankrolled opponent to break him via variance HU, if you are tilting in 3-5 handed games, I'm sure it's killing your winrate.

TAG’s are very effective at taking money off of the weaker players and their style allows them to play a large # of tables. NL is just as much about not making big mistakes as it is about making plays and it's a lot easier to avoid making big mistakes with the tight/aggressive style even 4-8 tabling than it is playing LAG. I’ve an enormous # of hands in PT and frankly the 4 of the top 5 players who’ve taken the most out of the Party full ring games since they’ve opened up 5/10 NL and 10/20 NL are all TAG’s who combine a decent to good winrate with playing a ton of hands. It works and those players aren’t there for your respect, they are there for the $ and some of them are very good at getting it. Could you make more emulating their strategy? Possibly but one thing that characterizes successful TAG players is they rarely tilt and have solid control, you may not be able to do this, many LAG's can't. You’re probably better off focusing on your strengths, I have absolutely no doubts that you are a fearsome short handed player when you play your A game and that can be a huge $ maker if you do it well and fix your leaks.

Do you really focus on game selection or do you let your ego tell you that you can run over every game? As far as I can tell game selection and changing gears are the most underrated skills in this forum but both can make a huge difference in winrate. The regular TAGs on Party 10/20 are not going to be run over by a known LAG, they are simply too experienced and trying to run over a game with 2-3 tough TAG’s at a 10 handed table is a truly bad strategy, especially if they have position on you or you aren’t all deep stacked with several times the buyin. Do you leave a short handed game that’s turned into a full ring game that has several known good players and no easily identifiable fish? Do you not sit down in a seat because after looking at the players ahead and behind your position, you decide it’s a crappy seat even though it might be a good table? You’re likely better off playing the 9 handed sites if LAG is your only gear and you don’t focus on 6 max or short handed 10/20 party games and have the discipline to keep looking for better games when they fill up.

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theres your answer

[KaneKungFu123]

good post.

i really should have specified though that i was talking, for the most part, about playing sh'ed. 90% of my tilt comes from getting outdrawn sh'ed.

[turnipmonster]

interesting, I'm the opposite. most of the times I tilt it's from having to make a lot of tough folds and/or losing a bunch of medium pots in a row. I then get paranoid, think everyone is constantly bluffing me and resteal and otherwise overadjust.