Crazy thing I almost never do against a LAP

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
As long as you're very confident in your read, I see nothing wrong with your line. You save a bet when behind and gain a bet when ahead, because he would likely check behind either the turn or the river. As a default c/c is the way to go though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the mere fact that no player is 100% predictable really means we want to show this down, the pot is already reasonably big, it's more important to get to showdown than to try to get him to call down with a worse hand IMO.

[arkady]

You know you just basically echoed what most of the forum thinks and does. No one cares about saving bets or making specific plays, everyone just makes sweeping general statements. ggman, you can at least pay attention to the HH before posting advice - I can't value bet the river if he checks behind since I am out of position.

Pot is big, must call.
Hand is good, must showdown.
Etc. Etc.

I don't want to showdown, thats the whole point of betting and planning to fold to a raise. To eliminate the showdown and try to save a BB. Is it right, I don't know? But I am trying to distinguish situations that don't require an automated response and maybe should be played differentely than what the norm suggests. Everyone has been so engineered to think a certain way that exploring any option that seems to clash with the norm is being met with feverish resistance.

So, on one hand I am angered by the close minded responses on the other hand I am instilled with uncertainty, as I don't have any other solid proof as to why this may be a good move.

I just know that this type of robotic thinking cannot possibly be sufficient if one plans to tackle the higher limits of poker.

[wackjob]

I hate bet & fold unless you are on a pure bluff. Other than that every possible way to play this hand has been addressed.

[Buck_65]

Well played IMO, although I'd call down in the moment because I'm not the best at recognizing when I'm clearly beaten while actually playing.

[Guy McSucker]

I think this is an interesting line but I am really not sure about it.

The problem is that, although he is a very tight preflop raiser and presumably an even tighter preflop 3-bettor, you've taken an unusual line and are liable to get an unusual response.

Donkbets get on people's nerves. Sometimes these people respond by raising when they wouldn't raise if you'd had the lead before. I have enough hand, and enough doubt about what a raised donkbet would mean, that I don't want to fold if he raises, so I don't want to donk.

The excellent way-ahead/way-behind line (check-call flop, check-call turn, bet river) of course suffers this same flaw, but there are two main differences:

1) the donk bet comes on the river, when it's easy for the opponent to just call and show down. I think you're less likely to be raised by a worse hand out of anger at your donkbet on the river than you are on the turn.

2) you get to see all five cards, and perhaps improve to a winner. That's not relevant here because if you are losing it is irretrievable.

I think difference (1) is enough that if I were to fold this hand before showdown, it would be to a raised river donkbet.

Guy.

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is an interesting line but I am really not sure about it.

The problem is that, although he is a very tight preflop raiser and presumably an even tighter preflop 3-bettor, you've taken an unusual line and are liable to get an unusual response.

Donkbets get on people's nerves. Sometimes these people respond by raising when they wouldn't raise if you'd had the lead before. I have enough hand, and enough doubt about what a raised donkbet would mean, that I don't want to fold if he raises, so I don't want to donk.

The excellent way-ahead/way-behind line (check-call flop, check-call turn, bet river) of course suffers this same flaw, but there are two main differences:

1) the donk bet comes on the river, when it's easy for the opponent to just call and show down. I think you're less likely to be raised by a worse hand out of anger at your donkbet on the river than you are on the turn.

2) you get to see all five cards, and perhaps improve to a winner. That's not relevant here because if you are losing it is irretrievable.

I think difference (1) is enough that if I were to fold this hand before showdown, it would be to a raised river donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread is important. The above post is excatly the kind of "normal" answer that I to would often give.

Personally, I dont think a pretty passive guy react to a donkbet with a: "Ok, lets raise for once". A passive guy is passive because he sees to many hands that beats him every time he got something himself. If he has any doubts at all he will only call donkbet.

But the important thing in this hand is not if Arkady saved a bet or not. The important thing is that if a pokerplayer constantly is aware of new ways of saving bets (or winning more bets) in a pretty straightforward hand like this, he will sooner or later win more then the guys that dont think like this.

In this hand there is always a point where this guy is so passive that he will never raise turn without our Hero drawing dead and then our Hero has found a good way of saving 1BB. And if we are constantly aware of possibilites like this we will - sooner or later - learn to do this donkbet and do it with EV+ at least 8 times out of 10.

The answer "I hate it" to this post is more of an attiuted towards poker then an answer to the post.

[setjes]

[ QUOTE ]
Donkbets get on people's nerves. Sometimes these people respond by raising when they wouldn't raise if you'd had the lead before. I have enough hand, and enough doubt about what a raised donkbet would mean, that I don't want to fold if he raises, so I don't want to donk.


[/ QUOTE ]

Aggreed. Even some passive players tend to overplay their hands HU and a donkbet encourages those players to make a desperation raise to get you to lay down a better hand. However, even in case he is this kind of player he will and can only be doing this (considering his PFR%) with a very narrow range of hands (I'd say QQ-TT, maybe 1 or 2 other hands you're ahead of but I doubt it).

I don't hate the line you took but I still think I can't fold this anywhere. Sometimes certain players change gears and will do strange things HU. I want to see a sd cause I got a a hand that beats a couple of his possible holdings, so I c/c turn and river until I've got a really good read of how he plays HU

[meow_meow]

I have to say I find this play a bit strange, especially given your responses in the donk-betting thread.

Had you bet or cr'ed the flop, I'd have much more confidence that his turn action means you're beat.

[Anders_G]

Why does the topic say he's a LA-P when you say he's a LP-P in the post? Surely confused me a whole lot until I read the stats you had on him.

Also, I don't like your line, but then again I never understood people who check/call flop and bet out turn (aka donkbet). I'd raise the flop, and it's not close.

[setjes]

Why would you want to raise the flop? Do you think it's a valueraise (on what range of hands do you put him)? What do you do when you get 3bet or raised on the turn?