WHAT IS UP WITH THE DONK BETTING?

[krishanleong]

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i 2nd that sentiment, especially in the higher limits the donkbetting is notoriously persistent.

krish may be right, if its becomes more widespread then some things will have to change.

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How does it change things? It can make it harder to play post-flop, but other than opponent specific decisions (like upping your blind stealing standards, for example), what do you see changing pre-flop?

Nigel

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Some hands are very marginal. Not being able to take a free card may push weak raising hands to calls or even folds.

Assume two scenerios, you have ATs on the button with 2 limpers and 2 loose blinds who will always check to you. You raise for value and for a 4 card flop.

In the second scenerio, people will donk bet in total 70% of the time an ace doesn't flop. (I don't think it occurs this high right now) This drastically cuts into our equity.

Now if you still like a raise in scenrio 2, keep weakening your hand until you don't. There should be hands that you would raise in scenrio 1 and not 2.

Krishan

[danzasmack]

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Online donkbets are very reliable. Usually done by older tighter unimaginitive players that typically mean "FOLD cuz I got the nuts". I love it, saves me bets.

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Live tourny, I raise JJ from MP. An old man goes all in BB and says, "I have AA please fold I don't want to get bad beat". I fold face up and he immediatly flips up AA and says, "thank god I would have gotten bad beat."

So yeah, he donks online.

[Anders_G]

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I swear to God it's everywhere...

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It is getting rediculous. The part I like least is if becomes much more widespread, preflop theory is going to have to be seriously altered. A chunk of a preflop raises value comes from getting checked to on the flop and having options. Donk bets reduce that value and may eventually cause some hands to be reevaluated.

Krishan

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I always thought that the only bet that counted as a donk-bet was when the bettor check-called a previous street.

However, betting out on the flop into the PF-raiser is already a good strategy given that so many players fail to adapt to it correctly and therefore make errors.

[JohnnyHumongous]

I'm glad a pretty good discussion on this topic got going here. I guess my definition of 'donk betting' might have been off... I really meant when I raise preflop, it feels like 30-40% of the time now I will face a bet on the flop from out of left field. And it can be anything at all, from say 89 off (one diamond) on a board of AK2 all diamonds to KQ on a flop of KQ6.

"The challenge presented by a "good" donk-bettor, IMHO, is that it is very difficult to extract the maximum with a good hand in position and at the same time lose the least with a good hand facing a donk." YES. This is a major source of frustration because as people discussed earlier, if they are betting with air versus strong draw versus strong made hand will drastically affect how they respond to any aggression from you. Ironically, even though I see players doing this who I would typically think of as weak and/or losing players, this can actually be somewhat of a good strategy just because it does mask one's hand strength well.

"I really feel that having a good read on a frequent donker is a very valuable read on post-flop play (better than most) because if he is frequently donking but not good, it's very exploitable; and if he is frequently donking but good, it's the mark of a tougher table than others that are probably available to you." Well I'll have to agree with you that reads is probably the solution here. It felt great the first time I realized I could raise someone on every street who donked into me on every street. This was way back a few months, but it was something like I had KT on a T high board, and this crazy donkbettor kept betting into me on every street, and I just kept raising him on every street. Before I would have called down on the river or something but my read was so strong I knew my KT was good. Of course, if they are thinking opponents in return then you could get burned yourself this way...

[Danenania]

I don't think it's such a big deal. You trade some of the EV when you miss for extra EV when you hit. And nailing them with a few turn raises tends to slow down the donk bets a lot.

It can definitely get frustrating when you're missing flops though. Just have patience. Don't try to play back at the players who will call you down with K-high.

[JDErickson]

Wow, after a long night of donk bets I was thinking about this myself. Especially at the 6 max tables. What I have seen mainly is if a donk hits any part of the flop he is going to donk bet, doesn't matter if you raised PF or not or what the board looks like. Very profitable if you are hitting your flops but gets expensive when you don't.

[cartman]

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What I have seen mainly is if a donk hits any part of the flop he is going to donk bet, doesn't matter if you raised PF or not or what the board looks like.

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This is great. The problem is if he starts to donk bet frequently when he doesn't hit any part. This lets you escaped when you have nothing instead of autobetting and getting checkraised or firing again on the turn, etc.

Cartman

[Wynton]

At the risk of being monotonous, I can't help repeating that I think we all need to differentiate between donk-betting the flop and later streets.

On the flop, the donk-bet is absolutely a legitimate, if not conventional ploy by good players, if nothing else as a change of pace. It really never occurred to me to be irritated or concerned by such a move.

But that donk-bet on the turn, or river, is what I personally find bedeviling, and more appropriately termed "donk-bet." Indeed, I'd like to see a discusion about how to figure out when a donk-bet on a later street conveys genuine strength or simple desperation.

[stir]

This is absolutely my experience (at LL 6 max). P-F raises receive no respect. EP donk bets time and again into the P-F raiser with any piece of the flop and/or thinks he can "steal" UTG with A,xo.