Either Life Exists Elsewhere or The Universe is finite.

[nervous]

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?????

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Need 1 more to confirm that I've been up waaay too late.

[BluffTHIS!]

For Professor Stephen Hawking's views on why there might not be other intelligent life in the universe, click here and click on "public lectures" and then on "life in the universe".

[BigDukeSix]

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We are life. We exist.

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This is a pretty big philosophical assumption. There is no proof we exist, just because we have consciousness. Philosophers have been wrestling with this one for a long time.

[adamstewart]

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I believe that the original title is true. Either life exists elsewhere or the universe is finite. Isn't the theory that the universe has expanded from a single point until it has reached its "bounding limit" and at that point it begins to shrink until it becomes a single point again? At that time it will start the process all over again? This theory predicts that the universe is finite, so there is a possibility that there is no other life in the universe.

I agree with the OP that if the universe is in fact infinite, then there would be infinite forms of life on infinite other planets in infinite galaxies. Since this is presumably not the case, there may or may not be life elsewhere. It is still entirely possible that there is a solar system setup that mirrors the Earth and Sun enough to support life forms just as humans.

The picking a real number over (0,1) really has no relevance to this at all. If you compare the existence of life forms as being number 0 and a random number generator picking random real numbers over the period (-oo,oo), which I believe is a more relevant comparision, then there will be infinitely more planets with life forms.

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Finally .... someone how 'gets it'.




Adam

I think what you're actually saying is that our existence proves that in any given finite amount of space there is a nonzero probability that life exists. However, if you assume an infinite universe, your argument would go: I certainly exist in a space of 10 cubic meters, therefore the probility of life existing in any give space of 10 cubic meters is at least 10/(volume of the universe), but if the volume of the universe is infinite, this is zero.

You might also look at it from the perspective of time- I exist now. If you assume the universe has been around forever, you run into the same problem as above. If you assume the universe started at some point, then you could certainly say the probability of life existing after some given time is nonzero, but this doesn't say anything about the probability of other life existing now.

There is no evidence that the universe is infinite, and claims as such are not based on science. What exists beyond the "finite" universe is most probably beyond the capability of anything within the universe to observe. And thus beyond-universe theories are currently unfounded speculations and not science.

Thus, the OP's question is moot, because no observation-based "infinite universe" theory exists to even be arguing against.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

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We are life. We exist. Therefore, the probability that life exists is greater than zero.

In an infinite universe, it is certain that a non-zero probability event will occur (repeatedly).

Therefore, either life exists elsewhere in the universe, or the universe is finite.


... but if the universe is finite, how does it end? And what's on the other side?



As an aside, if one assumes that the universe if infinite, it follows that the probability that I am sitting here this very moment, typing a 2+2 post on my Dell laptop .... again, is greater than zero. Therefore, an identicle "me", an identicle "earth", an identicle society .... must also exist elsewhere (repeatedly).



Adam

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this is not true. The universe could be infinite and simply be full of the same crap. Forever. just becuase it is "endless" doesnt mean everything that has a probability will be or exist.

lets assume the universe is infinite. Does this mean that somehwere there must be a planet of flying spaghetti monsters? no. does it mean there must be intelligent life somewhere? no. (although it may be very likely).

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

ok, after some thought i came up w/ a good analogy.

lets say the universe is a deck of cards (a finite deck, with infinite shuffles and deals). Our life is one unique deal of the cards. According to your reasoning the folling must be true:

1. given infinite shuffles and deals, every possible combination must happen eventually.
2. there must be a probability of the same deal being repeated,
3. therefore, there must be a probability of the same deal being repeated for infinity.

therefore your logic is flawed. assuming the universe is infinite, there could be or could not be non-zero probability events that must occur/repeat.

end of thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[maurile]

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In an infinite universe, are there an infinite number of infinite possibilities? Good question.

Here's a thought:

According to this theory, someone, somewhere in the universe would have found or made a tool to destroy everything in the universe, and used it (since every possible version of every possible thing exists). Therefore, because the universe (and us) still exists, the universe either

A) Cannot be infinite
B) Cannot contain every possible variant of every possible scenario.

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C) A device capable of destroying the universe is not possible.

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That's (B). No need to add a (C).

[adamstewart]

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ok, after some thought i came up w/ a good analogy.

lets say the universe is a deck of cards (a finite deck, with infinite shuffles and deals). Our life is one unique deal of the cards. According to your reasoning the folling must be true:

1. given infinite shuffles and deals, every possible combination must happen eventually.
2. there must be a probability of the same deal being repeated,
3. therefore, there must be a probability of the same deal being repeated for infinity.

therefore your logic is flawed. assuming the universe is infinite, there could be or could not be non-zero probability events that must occur/repeat.

end of thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Premise #3 is redundant to #2.

I have no idea how your conclusion follows from the premises. In fact, I cannot even comprehend your conclusion.


My original argument is valid and sound. Accordingly, this thread actually 'ended' before it even started, with the title:

"Either life exists [or has existed] elsewhere, or the universe is finite."



Adam