the amount of cheating in poker

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi D.J.

You wrote:

Cheating in some way or form is going to occur, there's not much one can do about it. Dan brings up the point about steroids in sports, being that sports is my profession, this is pretty important stuff. I KNOW that I have/will face pitchers who use steroids, I KNOW that I have/will compete w/ guys on my team and other teams that use unfair advantages, it's a part of life, all you can do is deal with it.

Like I said, if this is the way you feel, you shouldn't play poker. Part of the reason for this is that as an expert, your edge still isn't that large. So if it is a certainty that you are going to be cheated, I don't think you should play.

You wrote:

Like Dan pointed out a player can still make money playing cards even though cheating may be sometimes going on. I don't think it happens near enough to make a difference in a solid player's career, but as I said earlier, to say that cheating does not occur is very naive, so KNOWING that it does occur at some point, a player basically just has to deal w/ it.

Well here's the problem. You can't have it both ways. If cheating doesn't happen enough to make a difference in a solid player's career, then it is hardly happening at all. That's because solid players only have a small overall edge.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Howard Burroughs]

Hi DJ,

You said,
"to say that cheating does not occur is very naive"


Well who in the world said that?


I know I sure did not. As a matter of fact, what's with your "Open your eyes Howard"?


Show me where I said there is no cheating in poker. I just asked a guy to back up his stamement that there IS PLENTY of cheating going on in the Bellagio high stakes games. That's a serious charge to make. How about some facts?


I at no time said that there is no cheating in poker. Just in the past few years we've seen scandals at the Plaza, Sam's Town and The Orleans. These are not rumors. These are documented at Nevada Gaming Control.


Re-read what I wrote dude. My eyes ARE wide open.


Best of Luck

Howard

PS, If your friend knows something is going on, why doesn't he go to Gaming?

[scalf]

[img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] hey, imagine you are a casino executive and ya hear all this talk about cheating/collusion...see some dirty, dresssed to attend cockfight, no shave in 10 days, cash out 10k, knowing your casino does not get that cash....these riff-raff lowlives might drive out real people that want a "high class vegas experience"; and rumours of cheating could spread to casino games....hey do the sensible thing..shut the card room down...put slots in...laff to bank...gl..jmho [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Scalf:

I've seen exactly this happen. Once a poker room develops a cheating reputation, it is doomed. This is true whether this reputation is deserved or not.

As for the rest of your post I'm reminded of a time in the mid-1990s when I was in the Dessert Inn. It was one of the last times Frank Sinatra played in town and there was a large show line, and given by the way the people lined up were dressed, these were the type of customers that this casino wanted.

In the corner of the DI was a small poker room, and at the same time they were having a $12 buy-in poker tournament. And, given by the way these people were dressed, it was obvious that these were the type of people that the casino did NOT want. Their poker room closed a few months later.

Best wishes,
Mason

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

sort of like horse racing? u know some races are fixed? yes? as long as u have the fixed horse. as for cheating in the bellagio tommy, cmon. theres cheating at the bike and commerce to. lets be for real......and i dont mean card mechanics tommy,i mean2-3 guys/gals playing out the same bankroll in a 60-120 game,30-60.......ahh whats the use,who cares......play on,play on

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

letsset the record straight here: I have personally witenessed cheating at the commerce in l.a., i have seen teams of players at the bellagio splitting their roll in the bathroom and discussing the "arab" in seat 3,i dont care at all since i play 4-8 and even there i have had to play against not very good team players. I know for a fact anytime there is gambling going on anywhere in the world there is some sort of chicanery going on,just the way it is,from poker,horse racing,jai alai,dogs......i am not here to provide proof,for if u believe evry game is honest,good for you......2. as for comments re: nick b. all i ever did was defend his right to protect his wife against people slurring her. 3. howard u know the western had a poker table.3. i have seen a dealer muck a tourists strt flush while playing,to award the pot to a local w/ a ace hi flush and after i spoke up it was henmmming and hawing....i have never played in that game again. 5. If u dont think dd was a ?friend? lol,of tony the ant ask him.6. you are a brown noser ,for why i dont know,u sound educated,reasonable and yes bitter,but for you to state that there i s no cheating going on in the poker world u are naive, notice i have not cursed you or spoken ill of you. I'll say it again,,..WHERE THERE IS GAMBLING THERE IS CHEATING,DRUGS,PROSTITUTION,keep your head in the sand. I wouldnt go out of way to prove it if i could. and there is no cheating at the bay area clubs. I have not been there to see it,so there is none at all. ok? every body happy?

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

I'll say it again clearly....Howard,There is cheating going on,i've seen it as far as team play. 2. i've seen and played in a game at el cortez where they juked a tourist out of apot,ileft never to play poker there again. 3. i only played devils advocate w/ the russ hamilton affair,and will state it again for the record...udont talk about someones wife whitin earshot of her husband,no class. 4. u say so your self that russ has some validity,and yes he is a confessed cheat,he is honest about that. 5. Tony spilatro was REALLY a VIOLENT GANGSTEr and i do apologize for the lackey statement towards doug d.,thats all i apologize for. guess u wont see this post though. I will not back down from my statement that there is plenty of colllusion online and in B AND M est. not marked decks,i have not seen one. yet. But teams i have seen at every level i have played in up to 15-30 and a few times i encountered team play at the Bellagio,and no i did not report it, once they were so bad at 4-8 i won and the other time in a 15-30 game i got up and left. TO ANYONE I HAVE OFFENDED I APOLOGIZE, EXCEPT your pal david keiser who is more obnoxious and ruder than i'll ever be. MR.MANHATTAN

[Jimbo]

MM wrote "WHERE THERE IS GAMBLING THERE IS CHEATING,DRUGS,PROSTITUTION,......"

Woohoo!! Three out of four isn't bad at all! Where do I sign up? That is unless the prostitutes are gonna cheat me out of my drugs and gambling money! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[**MR.MANHATTAN**]

JIM, whether you meant it or not,u made me really laff..thx. When i posted here i was not trying to upset or insult anyone. I might say what i do with conviction,but thats me. So again if i insulted you or your pals im sorry. from now on i lurk and will not post...but thx for the laffs. Mr.M [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Howard Burroughs]

Thanks for taking the time to post. Again, I'm not bitter. I just like facts.

I agree with you that there will always be some form of cheating somewhere in the world. If someone knows about it in my part of the world (even if at stakes higher then I play), I simply say, "Show me the money".

I at no time claim there is zero cheating in poker. I've seen dealers fired, floor men fired, & have even been asked to join a cheating ring myself (back in January of 1988).

My head is not in the sand. I just want all the information I can get.

*********************

As far as your brown nosing comment.

The two card room managers who have done the most cool things for me over the years........

Jim Greenwood - Formerly of the Las Vegas Regent. No longer in Vegas TTBOMK. BTW, the Regent is another room where honest Russ did not have his facts straight. I played in that room everyday and his comments about the Regent were way off.


Doug Dalton - Bellagio

I hardly even play at the Bellagio but I still think he's an alright guy.





I'm sometimes told by friends that I'm too pro 2+2. Well I think they have the best books and the best website. Mason is my favorite author. Ray Zee is the nuts and Sklansky is the top mind in poker.

So if someone asks me where to go to learn poker, I'm gonna say 2+2 before I say UPF. Sorry if that sounds like brown nosing.


Thanks again for responding. I know we can be friends.


Best of Luck

Howard