Shorthanded Play Win Rates for Advanced/ Good players - Page 4

LarsVegas · #31 08-05-2005, 10:53 AM

Another reason why advanced shorthanded players do better is because ring-game limit (particularly vs weak and loose lineups) is about playing certain situations over and over again. Coming in with medium-to-big pairs, big aces and big suited connectors... after a while you learn to play the flop combinations these hands can get (overcards? set? overpair? suits on the board? connected? - for pairs, top pair? overcards? suits on the board? - for big cards) etc.

Shorthanded limit holdem creates a lot more situations you must be equipped to face, over and over again. You need to learn when and how to get to showdown with A highs - and sometimes even K highs. Being weak at playing the small blind versus raises will be much more costly - you frequently need to 3bet from the small blind and play well out of position.

Etc etc.

lars

Glenn · #32 08-05-2005, 04:36 PM

"You're missing my point, but thats ok. "

You are missing THE point.

YoureToast · #33 08-05-2005, 05:03 PM

OK, now to respond directly to your post.

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Why does it matter what the best players win?

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1. To help me decide whether its a reasonable life decision to stay in my current job and play poker parttime or whether it may be better to play poker full time or more full time.
2. To help me judge how close to the best I am and how far I have to go and how much money I can make per hour, per day, per week, per year. Even if I cannot achieve the numbers of the best players, knowing this information is useful in determining what is a realistic expectation. I am a lawyer. When I went to law school, I had an idea about what average lawyers make and what the top lawyers can make. Although I never expected to make what the most successful lawyers made, knowing generally what is achievable and what an average lawyer made helped me make the decision to attend law school, helped me decide what type of law to practice (corporate), etc.
3. Because its fun to know.

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What makes you assume that when you play NL you are going to be one of the best players?

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I don't assume anything. When did I say this? Does knowing what the BB/100 of those good NL and limit players make and the number of hands they can play in an hour affect which I decide to ultimately play, how much I play, how much more I have to learn, etc? In each case, of course it does.

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Why only assume that you can be a mediocre player?

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When did I assume this?

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All that matters is what YOU win.

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NO....It matters what I win, but it also matters what I CAN win, what I'm likely NOT to win and what my expectation is of winning certain amounts or a specified period. THIS MATTERS. To tell me what matters to ME is quite presumptuous.

The rest of your post is fluff so I won't respond to it.

Glenn · #34 08-05-2005, 05:46 PM

I understand what you're asking, and I know there are reasons you want to know it. What I am telling you is that you are in the wrong frame of mind, and need to move past it if you want to get better. You are asking small stakes questions. Great players are gamblers. An expectation of money doesn't pay your mortgage. There is no manifest destiny of X/yr. Worrying about playing well, finding good games, and not being broke will make you more money. Everything else hinders your progress. So either get over it or accept mediocrity.

YoureToast · #35 08-05-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand what you're asking, and I know there are reasons you want to know it. What I am telling you is that you are in the wrong frame of mind, and need to move past it if you want to get better. You are asking small stakes questions. Great players are gamblers. An expectation of money doesn't pay your mortgage. There is no manifest destiny of X/yr. Worrying about playing well, finding good games, and not being broke will make you more money. Everything else hinders your progress. So either get over it or accept mediocrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't the one asking the questions; you have me confused with OP. I was simply defending OP's desire to know what he wants to know.

Glenn · #36 08-05-2005, 06:10 PM

If you aren't making the same mistake, why did you recently make a post with your ptracker stats comparing them to how much you thought you should be winning?

bobdibble · #37 08-05-2005, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Great players are gamblers.... There is no manifest destiny of X/yr. Worrying about playing well, finding good games, and not being broke will make you more money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the gist of what you are saying... However, doesn't a good gambler evaluate the EV of various options and choose the one with the highest EV?

Now suppose a beginner or intermediate player is trying to pick a game to master to maximize EV. How should one go about assigning EV of mastering various games other than by asking existing experts about the current state of game selection for each game, their opinions of future game selection, the dificulty in matering the game, and their earn?

Glenn · #38 08-05-2005, 07:33 PM

"However, doesn't a good gambler evaluate the EV of various options and choose the one with the highest EV?"

Right, but not numerically. You have to learn to recognize the best situations without a million hands of stats and the opinions of 38 experts. In mid to high limit games, especially shorthanded, the conditions vary so much from day to day and hour to hour that past results become weak predictors. Also, results from person to person vary more and more because the game becomes much more dynamic.

"Now suppose a beginner or intermediate player is trying to pick a game to master to maximize EV. How should one go about assigning EV of mastering various games other than by asking existing experts about the current state of game selection for each game, their opinions of future game selection, the dificulty in matering the game, and their earn? "

This is mid-high where good players are trying to become great players, so the beginner/intermed stuff doesn't apply. As far as game selection, you can of course discuss it, but really something like choosing between limit and NL cannot be decided like that. Some people are better at limit, some people are better at NL. You have to find out what you are, not find out what the "good" players win.

YoureToast · #39 08-05-2005, 10:15 PM

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If you aren't making the same mistake, why did you recently make a post with your ptracker stats comparing them to how much you thought you should be winning?

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If I thought it was a mistake, I wouldn't have been defending the OP. To ignore these things, to me (and obviously not to you), would be a mistake.

J_V · #40 08-06-2005, 08:53 PM

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For instance if J_V is beating a game for a good amount, I know I can easily kill it.

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I'm not sure if you know you, but you are talking about the 19th place finisher 2005 WSOP omaha hi-lo tourney. Without credential like that, I wouldn't be so smug if I were you...........