Poll -- What is Hero's error in this $33 hand

[pooh74]

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If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

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Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

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I am not curtains, but OP's PF decision needs to be looked at here frozen when it was his turn to act. Not raising here has got to be -EV...obviously disaster happened to be looming, but I don't see why that should be taken into account when discussing OP's limp.

If OP raises, how much? Then look at the reraise/allin and put him on a range, look at your odds, and call or fold...I think I would call given OP's remaining stack if I raised PF.

[mmbt0ne]

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If only you all knew how much I hate limping in here with JJ. I think its just terrible, but everyone seems to like it!

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Curtains if you PFR with it do you call his impending re-raise (i.e. if KK pushes, or bumps it to t350)?

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After 1 limper, I'm probably raising this to 100-115 or so. Now, let's say it's folded to MP2, and he re-raises. If he pushes, I'm almost always folding. If he raises to 350 or so, I'm folding too. I can't invest that much preflop, and I don't think JJ is going to hold up very well against his range of hands. The only situation I might not fold would be a min-reraise. I would probably end up calling that, unless he had shown himself to be stupid aggressive earlier in the tournament, and open push any under flop, try to get all his chips in when a J flops. Otherwise, check-fold.

[Howard Treesong]

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But he did have it.

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Not relevant. If enemy would have played AK/AQ the same way, then hero would be correct to bet/call PF.

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{Bet/fold is} not weak tight.

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Yes, it is.

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It was his mistake to limp/call. It should have been bet/ <font color="red"> call. </font>

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FYP. If the KK reraises to 270, you're getting 2.25:1 (405 in the middle against a 180 call). If the enemy plays AK-AQ and AA-QQ the same way, that's a pos-EV call. And you go broke to that flop, IMO.

[Mr_J]

"How is it that the justification for taking early coinflips with AK"

This would be terrible. No-one is advising you to do this. You only do this against players who are so LAG that they could be pushing/raising/calling K7 or some crap.

"but the consensus on this forum seems to be that jacks are a marginal hand?"

Obviously not, more people on this thread love raising jacks than limping them.

[45suited]

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To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

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This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

Hero in this hand started the hand with 690 chips! Not raising is really bad here. Think about all the pots he ends up winning by raising here. He needs chips, raising with the 4th best hand in poker sounds like a good way to get them.

[durron597]

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Not raising with jacks in this spot, especially with his stack, is godawful. He ran into a monster, big deal, stuff happens. What about all the times that he raises, gets called by crap, and wins nice pots?


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Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

The flop comes with 1 over half the time, and you usually won't win more than the initial raise if the overs don't come. So 65% of the time you win t150 and the other 35% or so you lose t700. You will almost never stack someone unless they have TT/99 and the flop comes 8 high or whatever. Except maybe not even then because you raised preflop in EP.

This is definitely a win a small pot lose your whole stack situation. I would rather fold preflop (instead of the limp) than play a big pot here out of position when I have 23 BB left.

[Maulik]

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I disagree, it would definately be -EV if the stacks were deeper, but w/ 800 chips, its not -EV to take a pass here.

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Maulik are you saying if the stacks were DEEPER you'd be willing to play this a little farther (i.e. bet or call on the flop), but given the size of the stacks its either AI or fold on the flop, so you choose fold?

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With deep stacks I'd be willing to call the raise PF. If I'm in this hand its likely I'm going broke given all the chips already in the middle. The large bet in a multi-way hand indicates strength more so than a continuation bet. With deeper stacks, I could muck unimproved or depending on the texture of the flop.

[durron597]

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To tell you the truth Jacks are just not a good hand. Their medicore 4 or 5 handed.

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This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a long time. It's the 4th best hand in poker and should be treated as such.

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I'm going to agree that this is totally ridiculous. There's a huge difference between JJ UTG/UTG+1 early at a full or near-full table than with 4-5 people at it.

[45suited]

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Alright, say you raise with JJ in EP and get 1 LP caller. The flop comes Kxx. Now what? Bet and fold to a raise? Now you're REALLY shortstacked.

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I'm confused now. You have no problem continuation betting a completely whiffed AK against one opponent but suddenly my jacks have no value if an overcard comes???

[Isura]

I would have raised preflop to begin with, and make things a lot easier. I open for 75-100 preflop and see what happens. JJ is a tough hand to play out of position, and raising preflop gives us pretty cheap information about what hands we are up agaist postflop. You played preflop like you were playing for set value, so then you should fold the flop when you miss.