88 on the Button

[MAxx]

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doesn't it seem weird to you that a villain would play top pair passively until the river then checkrasie it <font color="blue"> Slightly, yes </font> ? I mean I've seen it before and this could be a set as well, but I think its definitely worth a call against an unknown. The actions up to that point seem a bit contradictory and the river is a great scare card. <font color="blue"> True, but are Colgins'unknown opponents going to be cr'ing river scarecards 1 of 12 times? I could be wrong, maybe even grossly wrong....but without knowing more than I know- I think it's more profitable to fold... esp at 3/6 or 5/10</font>

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[sammy_g]

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doesn't it seem weird to you that a villain would play top pair passively until the river then checkrasie it?

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Not really if villain thinks he might be against an overpair in this spot. Hero did 3 bet. Villain makes trips on the river and checkraises.

(I'm not saying villain's play is good...)

[JrJordan]

Getting 12:1 on the river when there's no previous inclination the villain had top pair before, I make this call about 95% of the time. The remaining 5% is for only the most passive opponents who don't know what the word checkraise means. An unknow player could be doing this with a 66/77 type hand because he knows you can't 3-bet if you have an overpair and might get a call from any lower pair. Easy call IMO.

[Guy McSucker]

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Read my earlier post. With what hand do you think villain is calling a 3-bet pre-flop and seeing the turn and river?


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Honestly, when the SB calls 3 preflop in these games it doesn't mean he has any kind of a hand. It means he's an idiot.

I bet the river 100%, hate the check-raise, know I should fold, and call anyway.

You're almost never good here unless you know the villain to be tricky. Definite bet-fold on the river. Do as I say, not as I do.

Guy.

[coolhanded]

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Honestly, when the SB calls 3 preflop in these games it doesn't mean he has any kind of a hand. It means he's an idiot.

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I agree. It doesn't mean he doesn't have you beat or that betting the river is +EV.


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I bet the river 100%, hate the check-raise, know I should fold, and call anyway. You're almost never good here unless you know the villain to be tricky. Definite bet-fold on the river. Do as I say, not as I do.

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So your advice is bet/fold...which you wouldn't actually do...

Crazy game, poker...

[arkady]

I am surprised that this hand resulted in such a debate. This is indeed an incredibly easy bet on the river (bob), in fact checking behind on that river is incredibly weak. Not only will any pair pay off, but AK-AJ will too, a hand very likely held by someone calling 3 cold from the SB.

As far as calling the raise and colgin stressed it correctly, he didn't know the player. If you don't know then you definitely invest and make a note of it. Normally you would expect TP to raise somewhere along the way, so the raise seems suspicious. But the T is as good of a card as Hero could have hoped to get.

In this particular instance SB is actually a somewhat timid/passive player and was scared even holding TP due to colgin'd preflop strength. Note and move on. Well done.

[alta_chuttes]

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As far as calling the raise and colgin stressed it correctly, he didn't know the player. If you don't know then you definitely invest and make a note of it.

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If he has a smaller pair or a bluff u gotta keep calling but there's nothing he can show you that makes you want to fold in a similar situation, right? A T or even 99 doesn't preclude a bluff in a pot this big, right?

[StellarWind]

Preflop, flop, and turn are all routine and good.

Here is what you need to know about the river: you must bet. You beat almost all the things that are calling you down. Most of the time he has a ten you'd be facing a bet right now. Checkraises are too infrequent to worry about. If you just decided to always payoff checkraises this would still be a great value bet.

I don't even think about how to answer this type of checkraise until it actually happens. Now that it has happened you need to make a decision.

If you call you will win once in a while but not very often. No one can tell you with certainty whether your 12-1 pot odds are good enough because the available information is very subjective. Probably the decision is close and it doesn't matter very much. It only feels important because the whole pot is on the line.

I would call because I have virtually everything but the actual scare card covered. If I had 44 I'd let it go because I can't beat the five. This keeps my play random-looking and ensures that the 'tween hands like 77 and 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] never steal anything they aren't entitled to.

But the most important thing is make a decision fairly quickly and don't look back. Don't waste a lot of energy or become upset over a situation that doesn't have a clear right answer. Folding quickly also helps other players believe that you were just bluffing. "Bluffers" get action but "folders" get trouble.

[arkady]

if I understand what you are asking....then, right.

[dave44]

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"Bluffers" get action but "folders" get trouble.

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This point is key. Good post- I try not to stress much over tough river decisions knowing that it can't be much of a mistake either way in the long run if it's such a tough decision.