AKo Preflop - Conventional wisdom is wrong. - Page 4

PokerFink · #31 07-02-2005, 04:13 AM

My numbers, just for comparison's sake. These are NL100 6max. Note that I just got pokertracker, so very small sample size.

AKs: 8 times, 75% win, $11.45 net, $1.43 average (.72PTBB). Go figure, I have not seen a showdown.

AKo: 16 times, 43% win, $68.40 net, $4.25 average (2.13PTBB). Most of it comes from cleaning out AJ on a AKJxx board, and another where I had aces and fives. Don't remember that hand.

FreakDaddy · #32 07-02-2005, 04:15 AM

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Done, give me 10 mins.

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My AKs is 3.76/PTBB per hand
And AKo is .89/PTBB per hand

I took some big hits with my AKs recently.

PokerFink · #33 07-02-2005, 04:17 AM

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If you raise the pot you're going to have almost = dollars to begin with, but a much more pot equity. Do you understand how these two numbers relate in terms of long term results?

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You lost me, please explain.

FreakDaddy · #34 07-02-2005, 04:18 AM

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My numbers, just for comparison's sake. These are NL100 6max. Note that I just got pokertracker, so very small sample size.

AKs: 8 times, 75% win, $11.45 net, $1.43 average (.72PTBB). Go figure, I have not seen a showdown.

AKo: 16 times, 43% win, $68.40 net, $4.25 average (2.13PTBB). Most of it comes from cleaning out AJ on a AKJxx board, and another where I had aces and fives. Don't remember that hand.

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Yeah, that's a pretty small sample size. Mine is from 25-100NL, but it's over 250 times each.

FreakDaddy · #35 07-02-2005, 04:22 AM

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If you raise the pot you're going to have almost = dollars to begin with, but a much more pot equity. Do you understand how these two numbers relate in terms of long term results?

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You lost me, please explain.

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I'm half asleep, which I do need to retire after this post... what I meant to say is that if you raise and get one or two callers, it will esentially be the same pot size versus a number of limpers with a small raise, BUT you'll have much higher equity going to the flop.

If your thought process is tied to 6 max, then what you're saying makes a LITTLE more sense, but still not ideal. In a full ring, to not raise AK strong after limpers is long term -EV.

BZ_Zorro · #36 07-02-2005, 04:25 AM

These numbers are from my new database. I have 25K hands in my old one but it's break even after much bad play (dumping $700 in one night for example), so the results are not for a winning player. AKo in that one is 1.67 PTBB/100. This is mostly $100NL full, a bit of $25, a bit of $200 6 max.
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AKo is a bit high and AA a bit low because of recent fluctuations.

PokerFink · #37 07-02-2005, 04:26 AM

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If your thought process is tied to 6 max, then what you're saying makes a LITTLE more sense, but still not ideal. In a full ring, to not raise AK strong after limpers is long term -EV.

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Come to think of it, I have always raised AK strong if people limped to me in full ring. The whole little raise thing is something that I have developed for my six max game. You're, right; it makes a difference. I probably should have mentioned a while ago that my strategy is 6max.

I, too, am going to bed. This has been a good discussion.

FreakDaddy · #38 07-02-2005, 04:35 AM

Thanks for the post. Find anything funny about your numbers, because I do.

Your PF raise% is low for AKs and your numbers are low. We also don't know of course how much you are raising, but still this is fairly low.

AKo on the other hand is raised more and has higher numbers.

Your sample size is still small though. none the less, thanks for the discussion. I'm off to bed.

BZ_Zorro · #39 07-02-2005, 04:41 AM

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Your PF raise% is low for AKs and your numbers are low. We also don't know of course how much you are raising, but still this is fairly low.

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Not sure what you're saying. AA raise is only 82%. I limp too much I guess. As for the numbers, it takes two hands going against you to get break even with 23 hands.

My raise % is on the bottom in the totals, ~4%. I play weak tight poker.

I agree the sample size is too small to say anything for sure. I'll post the 25K database as well later, I'm off to bed too.

Dommer · #40 07-02-2005, 07:59 AM

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The problem with your scenario is that no one is calling with dominated hands.

How about you raise to 4, and JTs calls you as well as KQ and AT. I sure as hell like my equity and awesome implied odds now. If I raise to 8, those hands fold.

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The problem with making raises with AK designed to get the pot multi-way is you make it correct for lots of worse hands to call, hands that are only designed to flop big hands (small pps, sc's etc). You are setting the pot up for it to be CORRECT for them to call, every time. Remember a big rule in poker is to make your opponent make mistakes. Assume for a minute you aren't playing the standard lineup of huge donks, you will get murdered making the pot multiway with ak. If you hit your hand and they play well they are going to take at least 1/4 of your stack most of the time, if not more. This sort of thinking can work at the lower limits only because the players are so bad, not because it's a good idea. It simply will not work at higher limits.

You then mention your awesome implied odds v a10 and kq and j10. Couple points on that. First off if the pot is multiway and you start getting multiple callers past the flop, your hand is dead and you have 0 implied odds. If you managed to win a big pot with multiple people calling you they are huge donks and you could take their money in countless ways, playing a big multiway pot being one of the least favorable. Realisticaly if you feel you have implied odds v any of those hands the players are donks and you would much rather be heads up with them for a larger raise pre (which they would call) anyways.

Hope that helps.