Overcard challenge

[Justin A]

Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

[party36master]

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I raise because I want to put pressure on T7s out of the BB or KT to fold. They aren't calling 2 bets.

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Why do we want T7s or KT to fold?

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I'll add a real read. I'm 21%/12%/1.9. Original bettor doesn't value my raise, and bets into me on the flop w/TT.

I want the two others to fold, because I can push original bettor off his hand with a flop raise, and a turn bet.
I don't want to lose when an 8 or Q drops.

Even without the original bettor having TT, I have company when I have just overcards, in a reasonable size pot, and I want people out to pick up outs. I don't want to lose to two pair, or when a weak draw hits.
I have position on original bettor, and can play the hand without too much problem heads up from the turn.

[Nate tha' Great]

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Here's an example. BB is loose and likes to bet out with both draws and weak made hands. He's a bit on the passive side if you fight back. He's capable of folding when it's fairly clear he's beaten.

CO posts a blind. Folded to him, he checks, I raise black KQo. SB folds. BB calls. CO calls. Three to the flop for 6.5SB.

The flop is 257r. BB bets. CO folds. I raise, planning on checking behind on any non-ace, non-king, non-queen, and betting any of those.

Rob

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We're still walking a pretty thin line here between those times we get our free card, and those times we get 3-bet or stopped-and-goed.

Say for example that 2/3 of the time, we get our free card (savings of 1 SB versus calling twice), but the remaining 1/3 of the time we get 3-bet (loss of 2 SB). Now the free card play just breaks even.

[Nate tha' Great]

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Villain in this hand has defended his blind quite a few times against me, and has led out on the flop almost every time. I've done a decent amount of folding to these bets.

I open on the button with JTo, villain calls.

Flop is 782r. Villain bets and I raise.

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What's the plan for the turn?

[party36master]

FWIW, Here's Ed Miller's entry: pg 231 SSHE

You have AQ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in BB.
Two players limp, SB calls, you raise, everyone calls.

Flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Small blinds is aggressive and thinking player, and bets.
You should raise.

[sthief09]

say you raise two loose-average or aggressive limpers on the button with A8s. two tight-average blinds come along making it 10 SB.

flop is 456 with one of your suit. limper #2 bets into you. by raising, you might be able to fold out better aces that might have limped or called from the blinds, you can fold out another 8, it's possible that the bettor is betting a draw, and if behind, you have the gut shot, backdoor draw, and ace over to improve to. if we get it headsup, then if we've caught him betting a draw, we're best, and if he's betting a made hand it's possible that we have both overs clean as well as the backdoor draw and clean gut shot.

intention is to bet the turn if it gets headsup, take a free card if someone cold calls, and take the free showdown against the limper

good post. it took me a little while to think of something, and I'm sure you'll still find some holes in it. you've proving a really good point here. along the same lines, you could ask for a situation when you should raise to clean up overs. I think that would be equally difficult to come up with.

[sthief09]

personally I think once you do that you have to fire on the turn and river. I hate these spots. such a small pot and it ends up costing me so much

[chief444]

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I don't care very much how many outs somebody has if I don't have the best hand. The parlay of my hand improving and theirs improving even further is too rare to worry about in most instances in hold 'em.

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Nate,

In most instances, the pot isn't as big. With a 3-bet preflop and 4 people to the flop increasing our own equity by only a small percent may make the raise worthwhile. Obviously there is a chance of a 3-bet and other factors at play here both against and to our advantage. I'm not saying I'd raise if I knew it would increase my equity by only 2-3% but when you start looking at the numbers with a 5% (1 in 20) equity increase and a big (likely ~15 BB) final pot when you're seeing the river anyway then it's worth the extra SB. I'm not thinking specifically of T7 or KT but folding out any hand or combination of hands that otherwise would have called will often increase our own equity by more than a SB worth with this sized pot. I think this one is close.

In all fairness though, I think the pot size on the flop he listed was lower than it would be with the given preflop action.

Nice post, btw.

Chief

[QTip]

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I re-raised in an attempt to pick up the pot right now, or otherwise to slow down any overcards that BB may be playing because I'm an idiot

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FMP

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I like it a lot.

[QTip]

4 loose limpers to you on the button with AKo, you raise, blinds fold.

Let's say the limper to your immediate right bets:

Let's talk about this, how much does it even matter if he's aggressive or passive? Really, does it even matter that much?

Now...let's say he bet into you and the flop is all cards that are either a T or under (not paired). Does is even matter how draw heavy it is (outside of the ridiculous).

But...I mean, in this situation, what's the vast difference among these flops?

1. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

2. T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

3. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

4. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I really believe I'm raising any flop like these.