Will Rove Resign?

[kurto]

I still think you have to be be looking for the comment to be worse then it is for it to be an accusation against all of the troops.

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what Americans had done to prisoners in their control,

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Were is the entire military in control of the prisoners? Were all American? I think you'd have to have reading comprehension problems to think this is a comment about all of the military.

If 4 policeman were found to be operating a white slave trade operation by selling kidnapped teenage girls and someone said, "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what policeman had done to teenage girls, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by the Mafia."

Would anyone in believe that every policeman in the country was being indicted?

Durbin's comments are an outrage that this would happen by Americans; it does imply that all Americans are guilty or responsible.

The shock by Durbin is that the outrages at Gitmo were perpetrated by Americans. He would think that this would happen in the American military. It does not imply that all members of the American Military are complicit.

I say again, if a squad of American troops were raping and looting whereever they went in Afghanistan... it would be appropriate to say, "If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done in the course of their military patrols, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, etc...." It would be entirely correct and appropriate.

The outrage is that the offenders were Americans. It is not saying all Americans (or military) are the offenders.

Its really basic english.

[kurto]

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Howard Dean express the same sentimats in public and unlike you he was serious (I assume by your that you were toung in cheek. yes?)


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I think Howard Dean's comments were just ugly. I think this kind of stereotyping is terrible. I was being tongue in cheek, but I picked those specific examples because those stereotypes are as prevelent about Republicans as the many nasty things that are said about Democrats by the right.

I agree that Howard Dean was WAY over the top. I actually don't think Durbin's comment was more reasonable and that people insist on misunderstanding it... at the same time, there was no need to use such inflammatory language when you know how people are going to react to it.

I don't know why you seem to think Rove's comments were more acceptable then Dean's comments. I have to assume that comes from your political leanings.

But at least we agree a lot of slapping is needed!

[MtSmalls]

I think its clear that the overwhelming majority of Americans, from whatever political stripe, strongly supported the Adminstration and its pursuit of Al-Queda and OBL in Afghanistan. Where the dissent came from was when the Adminstration decided to expand its 'war on terrorism' by invading Iraq on false pretenses and 'fixed' intelligence.

To paint all liberals (and Rove did NOT mean just MoveOn and the fringe of the left wing) with this kind of statement is nothing more than divisive politics and seriously insults a wide portion of the population.

But I guess the Rove Machine is desperate given Chimpy's current poll numbers and clear inability to get any significant legislation passed despite controlling both houses....

[BCPVP]

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To paint all liberals (and Rove did NOT mean just MoveOn and the fringe of the left wing) with this kind of statement is nothing more than divisive politics and seriously insults a wide portion of the population.

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How do you know what Rove meant? Are you a mindreader?

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But I guess the Rove Machine is desperate given Chimpy's current poll numbers and clear inability to get any significant legislation passed despite controlling both houses....

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And why would making this statement raise Bush's poll numbers? This sounds more like someone who's tired of being insulted and not insulting back to me. Think about Dean's poll numbers. He's not very popular right now, is he, yet he keeps making the most ridiculous statements.

[kurto]

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Another possible explanation for the stereotype that Dems are weak on defense could be the perceived wishy-washiness. "I voted for the $ 87 billion...etc".

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You know... you're really giving bad examples. Because the examples you give reinforce how bad dishonest propaganda works. Anyone with half a brain who actually studies the issues and the news would know that Kerry wasn't wishy washy here. And that the Republicans used dishonesty and relied on people's ignorance to badmouth Kerry here. The worst thing you can say about Kerry here was his piss poor verbal skills. Bush, being the dishonest man he did, presented it as if Kerry voted for a piece of legislation and then didn't. When the reality is that Kerry voted for a piece of legislation that Bush and Republicans weren't going to pass, they CHANGED the legislation (if I remember correctly, they changed who was going to pay for it) and then he refused to sign it. Bush fails to mention that he wasn't going to vote for the 87 million the way it was originally proposed.

But, the way its is presented (ie Propaganda repeated over and over again) is not how it happened. Thank you for reinforcing my point; ie, the propaganda is dishonest and repeated over and over without critical examination and it has its desired effect.

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Whether he meant to or not, he did liken them to the most horrible thugs the 20th cen. knew. And from the military friends (and stories of others) that I've heard, many of the soldiers have this "insult one of us, insult all of us" mentality

[/ QUOTE ] He likened the people committing the acts to thugs. What's wrong with that? I'll repeat what I said earlier to slamdunk... people insist on misrepresenting what he is saying (or they lack basic english comprehension... you tell me which it is)

""insult one of us, insult all of us"" Then the people who say this are idiots (notice, I'm not indicting all the military, simply the ones that hold this retarded view. I'll use my analogy again; Let's say a squad of Americans was raping Iraqi women everywhere they went. When it was discovered it would be completely appropriate to say, "I was shocked to find that AMERICANS were committing this act and not Mongel Hordes or Nazis"... The outrage is that the offenders were Americans. And if the 99.9% of the military felt insulted, then they've got problems and sound pretty shallow. A person with half a brain and decent values would be outraged at the AMERICANs who did it who bring down the image of other Americans.

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Stereotypes are not in and of themselves dumb.

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry, I think this statement is dumb.

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Stereotypes don't tell us much about individuals, but they are useful when talking about large groups of something.

[/ QUOTE ] They are useful for making erroneous judgements about large groups of people.

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the stereotype that Dems are weak on defense does exist (I've seen polls to this effect, but I'm too lazy to look any up, so take it FWIW), and to argue that that stereotype is based on pure fiction is just silly.


[/ QUOTE ] I don't discount that the stereotype exists. But to argue that it has merit is wrong. (For the record, you are a partisan person fond of right wing propaganda so I expect you to believe the fictions - and I'm really not trying to slam you, but I think you consistantly tow the party line and give RW propaganda the benefit of the doubt consistantly)

So far, none of your arguments show that Democrats are weak on defense. Dick Durbins comments do nothing to show the democrats are weak on defense. Pointing out that a stereotype exists does not mean that the stereotype is true or valid.

Black men have large penises. A stereotype... when examined, it has been shown that the color of a man's skin has no bearing on the size of his genitalia. The stereotype is known by nearly everyone... yet it is fiction.

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My point all along has been that there's an element of truth to a stereotype

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So... black men have large penises? Then why is it when its been examined they've found that the size of genitalia fits within a range of normality and that there was no discrenable difference relating to skin color?

Is it possible that the myth came from Prejudice? About white man's fears about black men?

That can't be since you insist that there has to be an element of truth to a stereotype. Hmmmm.

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The fact that people can see a couple cases where the stereotype fits and then begin painting the whole group with the same brush is why propaganda sometimes works.


[/ QUOTE ] Actually, this is what I'm saying, but it also shows why stereotypes are wrong. Because finding a couple of cases where a stereotype exists doesn't prove the stereotype is accurate. Since it doesn't show that the couple of cases found might be non-typical.

[kurto]

I find it odd that a large majority of the republicans (at least on forums like this) always label all Democrats as liberals. Anytime a Democrat says something they don't like, they say, "here liberals go again..." even if the politician is not a liberal.

Suddenly, when its convenient, they pretend that when Rove says 'liberals'... he doesn't mean Democrats.

And to address BCVP- they were discussing this on hardball last night and I think their points had merit: Statements like this are setting a framework for future elections. Howard Deans comments and Rove's were equally ugly and served the same purpose. They are trying to use language that think will incite the passions of their base. It is not meant to be honest or productive, it is meant to divide people and demonize the opposition. As long as everyone chooses to side with their leaders when they make crass statements like this and be offended when the other side does, we'll continue to avoid discussing real issues and simply engage in politics of hate.

[BCPVP]

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You know... you're really giving bad examples. Because the examples you give reinforce how bad dishonest propaganda works. Anyone with half a brain who actually studies the issues and the news would know that Kerry wasn't wishy washy here.

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Does your mind emit words while you read? Notice the word "perception". People perceived Kerry's position as wishy washy (you may not have, but many did).

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He likened the people committing the acts to thugs. What's wrong with that? I'll repeat what I said earlier to slamdunk... people insist on misrepresenting what he is saying (or they lack basic english comprehension... you tell me which it is)

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He likened turning the A/C (Ridiculous in and of itself that we allow them to have A/C) up and down to the genocide of millions. This is not a misrepresentation of what he said, it is what he said, whether he meant it or not.

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""insult one of us, insult all of us"" Then the people who say this are idiots (notice, I'm not indicting all the military, simply the ones that hold this retarded view. I'll use my analogy again; Let's say a squad of Americans was raping Iraqi women everywhere they went. When it was discovered it would be completely appropriate to say, "I was shocked to find that AMERICANS were committing this act and not Mongel Hordes or Nazis"... The outrage is that the offenders were Americans. And if the 99.9% of the military felt insulted, then they've got problems and sound pretty shallow. A person with half a brain and decent values would be outraged at the AMERICANs who did it who bring down the image of other Americans.

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You're certainly allowed to have this opinion. But I wouldn't run on that platform. I think lots of groups share this mentality, so it might be wise if you didn't go around calling them all idiots.

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Sorry, I think this statement is dumb.

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That's because you're mind is stuck on the connotation for "stereotype". I'm talking about the denotation, which is basically making a generalization.

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They are useful for making erroneous judgements about large groups of people.

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Again, you're missing the point. Think about this. I think there's a stereotype that old people wear glasses. It's true for a large amount of old people, but not for ALL old people. Think about it. It's almost impossible to talk about a large group of people without making a generalization or two.

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I don't discount that the stereotype exists. But to argue that it has merit is wrong. (For the record, you are a partisan person fond of right wing propaganda so I expect you to believe the fictions - and I'm really not trying to slam you, but I think you consistantly tow the party line and give RW propaganda the benefit of the doubt consistantly)

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Back to making snap judgements about people's character based on a few quotes by them...? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Pointing out that a stereotype exists does not mean that the stereotype is true or valid in all cases.

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Fixed that part. You still don't get it. Stereotypes have some element of truth to them. Stereotypes ARE NOT USEFUL FOR DESCRIBING INDIVIDUALS. But that doesn't mean they're based entirely on fiction.

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Black men have large penises. A stereotype... when examined, it has been shown that the color of a man's skin has no bearing on the size of his genitalia. The stereotype is known by nearly everyone... yet it is fiction.

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AGH, you're sooo close. Yes, this is a stereotype. But there is an element of truth to this stereotype, right?

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Is it possible that the myth came from Prejudice? About white man's fears about black men?
That can't be since you insist that there has to be an element of truth to a stereotype. Hmmmm.

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Not sure exactly what you're implying. But you've regressed. The stereotype is true for some, is it not? Of course. Is it true for ALL? Of course NOT!.

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Actually, this is what I'm saying, but it also shows why stereotypes are wrong. Because finding a couple of cases where a stereotype exists doesn't prove the stereotype is accurate. Since it doesn't show that the couple of cases found might be non-typical.

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Sigh...you've partly got it. Stereotypes don't apply to everyone within the group. But they can be useful when discussing large groups. Otherwise we couldn't make any statement about large groups. We could only talk about individuals. Comprende?

[Greg J]

Hey Kurto,

I think you and me would agree 99% on most political issues. However, there are a couple of points I think you should rethink:

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And that the Republicans used dishonesty and relied on people's ignorance to badmouth Kerry here.

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Okay, whose fault is this? You blame the Republicans. I don't. Unlike many leftists I have this thing about personal responsibility... I blame the people. Republicans are basicaly filling a political-ecological niche as I see it. Blame the other guy for being wishy-washy and unpatriotic. Is it true? Who cares? The people will buy it! If people did not beleive it then it would not be effective. The worst example is the people of Georgia in thier 2002 Senate election, where Rove orchestrated a campaign ad where Max Cleland was portrayed as sympathizing with Saddam and OBL, and accused of being unpatriotic. This is a guy that lost 3 limbs for his country in Nam, and was running against a guy who avoided service. So the thoughful people of the state of GA saw through this right? No, Cleland lost. I don't blame Rove, or the Republicans. I put the blame where it belongs -- on the idiots of the state of GA.

Secondly, stereotypes are often based on some truth. This does not necessarily mean that they are true when applied to individuals. That is to commit an ecological fallacy. Many gay men act feminine, more so that straight men. That is not be homophobic (I support gay marriage), but it's based in truth. Do all gay men act feminine? Of course not -- I know many that don't. In fact, most probably don't. To say otherwise, and to accuse a feminine acting man of being gay is to commit an ecological fallacy.

I guess my point is, stereotypes usually exist for a reason, but buying into these stereotypes is for suckers. It's okay to make this distinction.

[kurto]

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Does your mind emit words while you read? Notice the word "perception". People perceived Kerry's position as wishy washy (you may not have, but many did).


[/ QUOTE ] but my point which you seem intent on ignoring is that the PERCEPTION is wrong; it is based on a fallacy. Bush said NO to the 87 million then he said yes when it was offered in DIFFERENT piece of legislation. Kerry voted YES at first and voted NO on a completely different piece of legislation.

Bush and Kerry acted identically; in other words, both voted YES and NO for the 87 million depending on how it was presented. But the RIGHT framed it in such a way so that they accused Kerry of being wishy washy when, if people were objective, they would have to believe that Bush was also wishy washy.

So the PERCEPTION that Kerry was wishy washy and Bush wasn't, is bullcrap. But the perception is out there because of the dishonest way the right presented the situation.

So, I still say you've proven my point; dishonest propaganda is effective.

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He likened turning the A/C

[/ QUOTE ] Now you're doing it. You're pretending that the report was nothing more then people playing with the A/C. This is why I said earlier that you do everything you can to side with RW BS. Durbin was responding to reports that we've used torture. Every partisan rube ignores everything and focuses on the airconditioning as a way of sticking their heads in the sand and avoiding the real issue.

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up and down to the genocide of millions.

[/ QUOTE ] No he didn't. The nazis did many things. To make an analogy, one does not have to share all traits of those being mirrored.

Furthermore, this is not the way I said people are misrepresenting Durbin's comments. His comments were not critical of all Americans or of all the military. People who pretend otherwise are dishonest or can't understand simple english. His comments were critical of the people who allegedly were abusing the prisoners.

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You're certainly allowed to have this opinion. But I wouldn't run on that platform. I think lots of groups share this mentality, so it might be wise if you didn't go around calling them all idiots.


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I'm not running on any platform. Why don't you address the mentality rathar then simply point out a lot of people feel that way. A lot of people are idiots in certain ways of thoughts. A lot of people believe in UFOs... they can be idiots for thinking that, correct? I'll use my example again... if a group of men were serial rapists and someone said, "I'm shocked to find men gathering as a group and raping people"... I'm not offended; the perps were men and their actions are appalling. Its like the Blue Shield (is that the term) where cops protect other cops when they've broken the law simply because they're cops... well, its unprincipled, idiotic and immoral. Call a spade a spade.

Do YOU think its idiotic or not? I'm curious.

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Back to making snap judgements about people's character based on a few quotes by them...?

[/ QUOTE ] I think I have more then a few quotes. You and I have had a number of lengthy discussions.

And I really want to repeat that I'm not trying to be a jerk or insult you here. We all have areas where we allow our biases to influence our outlook. I think that you strongly partisan and tend to give the right (and their propaganda) the benefit of the doubt while it takes a mountain of evidence to give the same credit to the left. A lot of people on both sides do it.

An example in another thread was a conservative poster agreed that Deans comments were WAY over the top and that Rove's were kind of wrong. If one removes their political blinders, they would see that they're both equally guilty. But the conservative WANTS to give credence to Rove's comments. And many Democrats WANT to believe Dean's comments are more accurate.

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AGH, you're sooo close. Yes, this is a stereotype. But there is an element of truth to this stereotype, right?


[/ QUOTE ] Actually, no. That's my point. Believe it or not, this has been studied. They've found that there's NO element of truth to this.

** I actually think we're agreeing on little parts here and there and missing each other on little parts. Certainly there are generalizations about certain groups that make sense. My point though is that many of these stereotypes aren't based on anything. And that stereotypes can be created simply by repitition, even if there's no truth to them. (ie... the myth of the well endowed black man.)

I don't have a problem making general observations. But a lot of these (political) stereotypes tossed around are based on how the propagandists frame policy differences.

If a perception is based on a stereotype and the stereotype is outdated or based on an isolated incident as opposed to a general quality about the group... then it is wrong.

[hetron]

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Two quotes from Karl Rove's speech to Republican supporters in NYC yesterday

"Has there ever been a more revealing moment this year?" Mr. Rove asked. "Let me just put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts the words of Senator Durbin to the Mideast, certainly putting our troops in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals."

And

"Liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers," Rove said. "Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 and the attacks and prepared for war.... "

So, once again with the President's numbers tanking, Rove brings up 9/11 to save his boss and blames everything on the liberals. From the first quote Liberals want our soldiers to die. And from the second quote;Liberals don't see the savagery in the attacks and want to offer the perpetrators therapy.

I think that it was pretty clear that in the months following 9/11 the entire country, regardless of political leaning, backed the President and the country. Where things started going downhill is when the Adminstration lost focus on OBL and started the Iraq debacle.

If Sen. Durbin's comments a week ago were inflammatory (and true), how do these blatant lies rate???

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In the first quote, he is basically saying that Durbin by protesting Gitmo is causing American soldiers to die (if someone can understand how, please let me know). In the second quote it is just the standard republican yahoo crap that the Fox viewers eat up.

What a scumbag. No matter how much the democrats screw up they could never be as big a collection of cheap-shot windbags as many of the core leaders of the republican party are.