Response to Cyrus

I'm used to having Israel in the neighborhood, Sammy, but I sure don't appreciate your distortion of facts here! And I'm not talking about arcane stuff, either...


You wrote "In 1947 the jews took by force the area we used to know as palestine."

Thanks for admitting that the Zionists had started the take-over b e f o r e the UN proclamation. This is indeed correct. The Zionists never were and never will be supporters of an Arab/Jewish cohabitation of the land. And didn't you just admit that this was Palestine?


You wrote "You think the Palestinians have only hated the Jews for about 100 years? Who have been fighting the jews since the time of Abraham?"

The people who call themselves Palestinians are descendants of the ancient occupiers of those lands only in name. And so are the Jews. Unless you believe in some biological continuation & purity of blood, along with the theory that stronger race blood overcomes the weaker one. Tell me, it would be intriguing!


You wrote "[The Jews] had been ejected from every country in the world except for France and the US."

WRONG. They were "ejected" from France, too. Read your history, man.


You wrote "They [Israel] were granted political life by the UN in 1948."

WRONG. Contrary to what you want us to believe, it was not the United Nations that gave birth to Israel in some peaceful & idyllic manner. Zionist armed bands led by Ben-Gurion proclaimed unilaterally the birth of Israel on May 14, 1948, right after the British vacated Palestine, ignoring pleas by the "civilised worlds" for continued talks with the Arabs who had rejected the idea of a strictly Jewish state. The Arabs of course promptly attacked - and yes, they lost. (And don't think that Israel was "weak and helpless" either. We know better. It was Goliath defeating David to be exact. Arabs fell for it wholesale.)


See http://domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF?OpenDatabase


The United Nations accepted Israel as a member in 1949 - with the strongest support coming from the Soviet Union.


You wrote "In 1956 they [Israelis] were attacked."

WRONG. It was the Israelis who attacked in 1956.

The Israelis invaded Sinai, along with the French and the British, advanced to the canal, and captured the Gaza Strip. A cease-fire was arranged, because the United States opposed the invasion and strong-armed its allies and Israel to stop it. In early in 1957 the invaders' troops were replaced by the UN Emergency Force. I guess, you could say that "they won", yes.


See http://www.washington-report.org/bac...96/9607083.htm


(Side note: The Israelis tried to undermine Nasser's efforts whereby the British colinists would vacate Egypt. They staged sabotages of British and American facilities, including bombs planted in American libraries, that were to be pinned on Egypt. To the Israelis' embarassment the whole thing blew in their faces. Read about the Lavon affair as detailed by a Jew : http://www.intellex.com/~rigs/page1/lavon.htm)


You wrote "In 1967 they [Israelis] were attacked"

WRONG. In 1967, the Zionists attacked again. You must assume that everyone in this forum was born after the 70s, man!


You wrote "Israel recognizes every other state's right to exist."

WRONG. Ariel Sharon and others, including Labor ministers, have often proclaimed in the past, and most prominently in the 80s, that the Kingdom of Jordan should not exist! That it was the rightful place for all those who called themselves Palestinians. King Hussein did not exactly fell in love with that view.


....Don't take my word on all this, guys, run a search on the Internet and read for yourselves. Start with http://www.mideastfacts.com/index_zion1.html

Sammy wrote: "still, ...Israel is a recognized political entity...."


SFW? Having status as a legitimate political entity doesn't absolve Israel for assassination and terror on the occupied territories any more the recogniztion of the legitimacy of Indonesia, the PRC, or South Africa absolved them for doing the same respectively in East Timor, Tibet or Namibia. Nor does the absence of international political recognition (which, BTW, the PA already has) render resisting victims such invasions more culpable.


Israel's legitimacy, which I accept, doesn't give it the right to use military force beyond what's necessary for self-defense. The occupation and colonization of the West Bank and Gaza aren't necessary to Israel's self-defense, indeed they obviously detract from it, but are part of a scheme of territorial aggrandizement, or as Gore Vidal provacatively put it: "stealing other people's land at gunpoint in the name of an alien theocracy."


The idea that Israel is less culpable for terrorism because it is an established political entity with a regular army, etc., doesn't wash. Given the greater ability of tanks and helicopter gunships to inflict terror, and given the exponential number of innocent civilians Israel's military and security forces have killed and maimed since it's invasion of the occupied lands (apart from wartime, so excluding the Lebanon invasion), one can easily conclude that Israel, despite it's legitimacy as a sovereign nation-state, is one of the major terrorist organizations operating out of the middle east. I realize this sounds insane given Israel's image in the U.S., but the body count doesn't lie.

I agree that the settlements on the West bank and Gaza are huge mistakes. But, how many of the other "political entities" that you cite have neighbors who have vowed to obliterate them?

The Nassar quote you cited is from 1967. Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia have since made peace with Israel and no longer call for it's obliteration. Perhaps Syria has too, or is waiting for the resolution of the dispute of the Golan Heights.