Ivey/Moneymaker WSOP 2003 - Page 4

FMMonty · #31 05-10-2005, 06:50 AM

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When does it become an acceptable beat? when you are a 75% favorite? 67% favorite? I doubt Phil Ivey is telling anyone how incredible of a bad beat he suffered in the WSOP as a 6-1 favorite.

I do think it's reasonable to refuse to shake someone's hand if they celebrate loudly after knocking you out of a tournament. I wouldn't do this anyway, unless it was really drastic like this crazy kid who got 8th from the WSOP, but I don't blame people for not shaking someone's hand after they start screaming in your face right after you suffer a bad beat.

I understand it's exciting to win a big hand, but if you refuse to take into consideration how the other person who just lost the hand feels (which is what you are doing when you celebrate right in front of them), then I don't see why they are obligated to politely shake your hand.

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Couldn't agree more, over celebration is far worse in my book.

Malachii · #32 05-10-2005, 06:52 AM

I have 2003 WSOP DVD, it was an obvious, clear snub. And Ivey rarely shakes peoples hand. He might grudgingly shake it if they extend it, but he never extends it first. I don't know if perfect gentleman is the word I would use to describe him... That said, at least he's better than the other Phil.

neon · #33 05-10-2005, 08:30 AM

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

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Fair enough, but who was ahead when all the chips went in? You're right in that it wasn't a remarkably bad beat in terms of the odds, but it was pretty brutal in terms of the circumstances, imo. Ivey read Moneymaker like a book, got all the chips in as a big favorite to double up and go into the final table of the WSOPME as one of the big stacks, and then just like that, he's gone. There's more than one way to suffer a bad beat.

willie · #34 05-10-2005, 09:21 AM

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

FMMonty · #35 05-10-2005, 09:35 AM

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The board read QQx9

3 more outs if the river matches the x as it gives Moneymaker Queens Full

ggbman · #36 05-10-2005, 09:36 AM

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He just bubbled from the final table in the biggest tournament there is on a huge suckout. I wouldn't be all smiles either.

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People who say Ivey was the victim of a huge suckout are amusing. He was only about a 6:1 favorite. One card earlier, Ivey was about a 14:1 underdog.

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Fair enough, but who was ahead when all the chips went in? You're right in that it wasn't a remarkably bad beat in terms of the odds, but it was pretty brutal in terms of the circumstances, imo. Ivey read Moneymaker like a book, got all the chips in as a big favorite to double up and go into the final table of the WSOPME as one of the big stacks, and then just like that, he's gone. There's more than one way to suffer a bad beat.

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Not to nitpick too much here, but if he read Moneymaker like a book, he would have folded the flop, he had nowhere near the odds he needed to draw to a 2 outer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

JimHammer · #37 05-10-2005, 09:37 AM

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It was a seven-outer.

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excuse my retardedness.

2aces, 2 queens, what were his other 3 outs? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The three cards that would have paired the other card on the board.

neon · #38 05-10-2005, 09:49 AM

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Not to nitpick too much here, but if he read Moneymaker like a book, he would have folded the flop, he had nowhere near the odds he needed to draw to a 2 outer. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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True. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I don't recall exactly how the hand played out, but I believe Moneymaker raised preflop, Ivey called, and then check-called the flop, perhaps believing Money was just making a continuation bet w/ AK or a pp he had beat or the like.

But on the turn, when all the money went in, Ivey read Moneymaker for having a strong queen after he checked again and Moneymaker bet again (granted, not the toughest hand to put him on), and then made the perfect play to get all the chips in as a huge favorite.

So you're right, Phil was fishing a bit on the flop and clearly got really lucky to spike a nine on the turn, but I don't think he was calling the flop w/ the intention of hitting his two-outer or folding--more like an, "If he bets again on the turn I guess I have to give him credit for a queen" type of call, I would imagine.

Not to nitpick or anything. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

slickpoppa · #39 05-10-2005, 10:47 AM

This was not a terrible beat for several reasons:

1) Ivey called a flop bet that he did not have the odds for, even implied.
2) 7 outs is not that bad of a beat.
3) Moneymaker had a great hand also and played it well. What was he supposed to do, fold trips with top kicker? It is not like MM called with a gutshot just because he couldn't let it go.
4) You could have switched their cards and the hand would have probably played out the same way.

Your Mom · #40 05-10-2005, 10:52 AM

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This was not a terrible beat for several reasons:

1) Ivey called a flop bet that he did not have the odds for, even implied.
2) 7 outs is not that bad of a beat.
3) Moneymaker had a great hand also and played it well. What was he supposed to do, fold trips with top kicker? It is not like MM called with a gutshot just because he couldn't let it go.
4) You could have switched their cards and the hand would have probably played out the same way.

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