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#2
05-09-2005, 05:25 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
in the same argument you say that these religions, which by their own doctrines are not based in logic, must provide evidence such that a person can use logic to derive their own belief in order to be legitimate. this means your argument is salient only to someone with the prerequisite that they are not a believer. in other words, your argument holds so long as the person to whom you posit it believes the same things you do.
you're basically preaching to the choir. as an episcopalian i can say that i certainly hope you aren't directly referencing my faith. of the chirstian denominations, we have always been the most inclusive and pride ourselves on welcoming any and all, regardless of their personal choices, past actions, or personal views on faith. fim 
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#3
05-09-2005, 07:33 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
A strict adherence to any system can produce fanatics. It is easy to see that Man and his knowledge have changed since the historical times when the religious texts were created. To evolve ourselves without changing our religious understanding is poor indeed. Following along with certain ideas to the exclusion of others can bring a rigidity to the mind, and flexibility suffers. The mind becomes no longer open to new ideas, options disappear, personal creativity stagnates. Intelligence may still be present, but the ability to adapt to various situations and to face them disappears. An individual cannot relate to the world in a practical manner, when insisting that some ideas are real and that some are invalid. An extreme example, to be sure, but in varying degrees such circumstances are experienced.
Ideas change, and evolve. Religious ideas should have also evolved, but as their "Truths" are supposedly unchangeable, we should not be surprised to find some people holding-on to 2000-year-old (and older) ideas and symbology. As a recovering Christian, I can say that to break free from childhood ideas is very difficult indeed. The mind doesn't release its firm hold on personal beliefs easily, it takes much work. But knowing that a belief is just an idea that was accepted and repeated and given life, so to speak, by the imagination, makes it easier to change. Some people will never do that kind of work, and will remain where there are. But all that was just an idea, just a thought. It is mine, and it works for me. We do have freedom of thought. Now, to see it in others.......
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#6
05-09-2005, 10:55 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
Me? When I die, it's "Lights on!"
To speak with many symbolic references, it is as if in life, using only one specific beam of consciousness like a light, say, a flashlight, to perceive one room of reality, when in an after-death environment, the entire room is visible. Then, of course after learning to manipulate or act within that room, within that reality, the adventure of consciousness occurs outdoors, so to speak, outside of that reality. The idea can keep growing, obviously, as an analogy. You certainly don't think there is a final resting place where communion with a buddha or singing lovely songs to a god-being is going to carry on through an infinite existence, do you? Those types of experiences are possible, depending on what a person believes, but any continued or sustained event is bound to become stagnate, or boring, or unfulfilling after awhile. There will always be more to learn, more to do, more to act upon and create. There can be no end to the possibilities. I find it odd that people report different events after having a near-death experience. Some see a tunnel, some see a light, some see their relatives, some see nothing whatsoever. A friend of mine who was clinically dead for nine minutes saw nothing at all. When I asked him, kindly now, what did he think or believe was going to happen when he does die, he said he believed nothing, nothing at all. Maybe someone should study the beliefs of those who have near-deaths, and accumulate some data. Perhaps the data would show that their experience follows their beliefs. (By the way, I did tell my friend that eventually some kind ol' soul would come around to wake him from that experience. There will always be teachers and others who will help, just as there are in life.)
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#7
05-10-2005, 09:42 AM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
[ QUOTE ]
I find it odd that people report different events after having a near-death experience. Some see a tunnel, some see a light, some see their relatives, some see nothing whatsoever. A friend of mine who was clinically dead for nine minutes saw nothing at all. When I asked him, kindly now, what did he think or believe was going to happen when he does die, he said he believed nothing, nothing at all. Maybe someone should study the beliefs of those who have near-deaths, and accumulate some data. Perhaps the data would show that their experience follows their beliefs. [/ QUOTE ] Or perhaps their beliefs follow their experience...I had 2 NDE's and each time saw nothing. I was too young both times to have been influenced by other's views.
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#9
05-11-2005, 04:04 AM
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There\'s something more important at stake David
[ QUOTE ]
To believe that God is unhappy with those who don't believe in a specific religion that is supposedly the true one, it is necessary that those who do believe in it do not merely say that they hope they are right or have an unshakable feeling they are right. After all those who believe in other religions can say the same thing. If believers of religion A think that believers of religion B will be sent to hell by a just God, it is necessary that they believe that an OBJECTIVE examination of the evidence should lead you to believe that religion A is more likely to be accurate than all the other competing theories, plus those yet to be espoused, combined. It is important to understand that it is only these religions and their strict practioners that I personally have a serious problem with. [/ QUOTE ] There was a time in history where reason trumped belief. Yet for the sake of accumulating power, controlling the masses, and fulfilling political goals, faith was indoctrinated in the minds of the 'lowest' of our society, meaning the uneducated, which were namely women and children 2000 years ago, and supplanted the schools of reason and philosophy. Today is only a continuation of that time line. Unfortunately I don't think it's enough to just say that people who evangelize are bothersome, and I'll ignore the rest. Those whom are educated and have the ability to engage in a formal dialectic need to step up and challenge these beliefs on all levels. If you haven't noticed in America, these belief based individuals, while many of them are good decent people, are being used to fulfill some sick and distorted political agendas. And it's only going to get worse. See, the unfortunate thing about belief is that you CAN'T understand it. I don't think many people see, or grasp this concept. These people who are spreading belief don't understand what they are saying, they can't. For if you understood something, you wouldn't need to believe it. It's an unfortunate plight for man, but it's one that can be changed by those who can elucidate a more holistic world view to the believers.
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#10
05-13-2005, 03:40 PM
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Re: An Inescapable Conclusion about Some Religions
This is the Golden Age of religion. Enjoy it while you can. At this point in time there is more religious people that there ever was, and ever will be. We are at a peak. In about 2 to 3 generations (30 - 50 years) major religions will be in decline. This will happen not because people "will come to their senses", but because religion will become inconvenient.
Major advances in the fields of neuroscience and biotechnology will provide benefits that outweigh religious justifications. Geopolitics and global economies will force individuals, groups, and institutions of opposing and conflicting ideologies to work in concert to further their goals. Over time, religion will become secondary, and thereafter fade into negligence. to be continued...
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