Live $500 Buy-In NL Hand

[MarkD]

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You have an 8xBB stack. What is your plan here, wait for aces?

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No. I'm playing devil's advocate here. You wanted an argument for folding - I provided one and I don't think you've refuted it fully at the present time.

For the record: I am NOT saying that I thinking pushing all-in is the wrong play, I'm just trying to say that I think this situation was difficult for me to play and I want to know what the best play is and at this point I still don't know. When I don't know the best play I explore all of my alternatives so that I can learn. I just wanted to be clear on this point since I haven't really stated what I believe is the best play or what action I did take on the hand.

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The bottom line if that people at this table are truly only going to call with hands that you are racing with, then you should be pushing a TON more.

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It's not even close to being this simple. My position, or lack thereof, in this hand is very important here. These players are going to look at my position and take that into consideration.

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Like with 8xbb and its folded to you in the CO, why would you fold with any 2 cards?


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Because it's slightly more obvious that I am stealing in this case than in the case I posted. In this tournament I would consider this though. Maybe I'm not pushing enough in this spot, but at the table previous to this one I was never given the opportunity to push even though I had decent hands. Players ahead of me made big raises forcing me to fold due to the gap concept.

I do think that if I fold my 8's and make it through the blinds that I would be pushing with nearly any two from the button or CO since my fold equity would be high.

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I do, however, think that folding 88 here is a crime, and I also have a very hard time some decent stack with 77, 66 or even a hand like KQo or ATo might look you up considering your stack size. The overlay from the blinds is going to give anyone, esp. with a hand like a smallish pair.


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This entire quote is kind of confusing but I think what you are trying to say is that you believe it's possible that someone with a big stack is going to look me up with a hand like 66 or KQo. My question to you then is this: If you had a hand like KQo, ATo or 66 and I pushed all in 17k from UTG with the blinds at 1k/2k, would YOU look ME up? Would your answer changed if I was pushing all-in from the CO?

[KUjayhawk08]

I agree with a push here. Raising to 4500 only to get reraised is a tough spot to be in. You will probably end up having to call with 30% of your chips already in the pot. Pushing in puts the rest of the table on the defensive, having to call a good sized portion of their stack to play an UTG raiser.

A less preferred option but also acceptable in my mind is a simple fold. If the table is all that tight, it is conceivable you will be able to steal some blinds during the next orbit. However, if things don't work out, you will soon be rather short stacked and praying for aces. That's why I'd push here, give myself a chance to win.

[Lloyd]

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Woah-why is everyone all about pushing. t17k w/ a BB of t2k. You can make it t4500 and *usually* fold to a reraise. The benefit is that the hand that reraises you will be a premium one and it will also be the one that busted you had you moved in. You can fold to a reraise and you'll still be okay stack-wise. They'll respect a gun raise but you want to leave yourself an out in case someone wakes up w/ a strong hand.

Of course, dealing w/ the reraise depends on who reraises.

I really prefer this to an all-in shove but am willing to be convinced otherwise.

IMO, moving in is bad poker.

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Interesting line and one I'd like to explore a little more. First of all, we all know the general rule that when you have less than 10XBB you should be pushing if you're going to play a hand because if you make a normal raise and get re-raised all-in you have odds to call. But we also know that if you have a big pair (AA or KK), maybe you should consider making a normal raise to get some action. Now, if you make a normal raise with AA or KK, and push with all other playable hands, it will soon become obvious that you have a major tell in your betting pattern.

So, let's make a normal raise w/88. For many, that might look like we want some action and get hands like TT and JJ to fold. So for added deception, it might make sense to make a normal raise.

My problem is two fold. First, what do you do if you are re-raised all-in. If we only get re-raised by premium hands (let's say AA-QQ and AK), there are 18 hands we are way behind, and 16 hands we are marginally ahead. We are just under a 2-1 dog and if our original raise was to 6k, and are raised all-in by someone other than the blinds, we'd be getting 2.3-1 odds. Would you fold? Now if you add JJ and TT to the mix, we are more than a 2-1 dog so the decision becomes probably neutral. So you are right in terms of our reaction to a re-raise has a lot to do with who is doing the re-raising.

Now let's say someone just calls, well if it's other than the blinds we'll be first to act. What's your plan? It certainly could be that we're up against JJ or TT. I would think it unlikely that someone is trapping us with AA, KK, QQ, or even AK unless it was the BB. So if we're called and there's an A or K on the flop, do we push to represent a big hand?

It's certainly an interesting line for a couple of reasons but the possibility of a re-raise adds some complexity. But I do think that any hand that would re-raise us would have probably called an all-in raise to begin with, so we are certainly ahead in terms of having more information to commit the rest of our chips.

[sos]

i fold.

limping would be poor as you get 8-1 to get a set and that is all you have. you would need better odds. Plus your position is terrible. Everyone is tight so a reraise would really hurt you. In fact you are so short stacked that if you did raise with this then u must go all in on a weak hand. there are lots of good players behind you who will see that you are not terribly short stacked so you must hold something. Therefore they will only come back at you with good hands.

If you fold you can try and steal blinds when you are in position plus because they are playing carefully you should get more chances to steal in the future. I would wait for a better position but not necessarily a better hand

[citanul]

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i fold.

limping would be poor as you get 8-1 to get a set and that is all you have. you would need better odds. Plus your position is terrible. Everyone is tight so a reraise would really hurt you. In fact you are so short stacked that if you did raise with this then u must go all in on a weak hand. there are lots of good players behind you who will see that you are not terribly short stacked so you must hold something. Therefore they will only come back at you with good hands.

If you fold you can try and steal blinds when you are in position plus because they are playing carefully you should get more chances to steal in the future. I would wait for a better position but not necessarily a better hand

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i don't want to seem overly harsh here, but this is some of the worst stuff i've ever read on 2+2. not only is basically everything you wrote false, but you clearly didn't read any of the other responses to the original post.

citanul

[sos]

i didn't read the other replies because i did not how to at the time.

Fair enough if you disagree with my fold. My raises tend to be aimed at players and not on what my cards are. I can see why people would push. I can see why they would fold. I am one of those who would fold and try and raise with worse cards but in a better position. You are one who would want to push to win blinds and if you get called you can still win and double up and be in good contention. I would probably push if i was utg+2 but no earlier or I owuld push if my stack was less. I am in no rush to play a weak pair out of position unless I am perceived as a tight player (which I am not and I know that people will play many more hands against me). Therefore I fold.

If I were dealt junk in SB and every one folded to me I would push all in with the junk. I don't even care what cards I am holding.

[Tyler Durden]

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Tyler.

I have respect and all, but this advice is not so good. If AK or AQ decide to look you up, which they will (or any other over cards), won't they tend to reraise instead of flat calling? Sure your smallish raise will scare the living crap out of them, but seriously, don't expect to get too much flop play in here.

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I see what you're saying but I'm not trying to play a flop w/ 88 here. A raise to 4500 will usually be enough to steal the dead money, so there's no need to risk your whole stack.

Yes it is a disaster to raise w/ 88 and fold to a reraise by AK. So when you get reraised, you consider the opponent and call/fold depending on your read.

[Mike Gallo]

Hi Mark,

I would raise to 6k.

You most likely have raised preflop 3x the big blind, so a "standard" raise looks normal to your opponents.

If a player reraises, you will not have a problem folding, and you still have chips. Since you call it a tight table, the first player to raise at those tables usually wins the blinds and antes.

[Mike Gallo]

I would raise to 6k, however I agree with your logic.

[Mike Gallo]

If you fold you can try and steal blinds when you are in position plus because they are playing carefully you should get more chances to steal in the future. I would wait for a better position but not necessarily a better hand

Some of the best players I know blind steal from ep.
Everyone knows that an ep raise means something. These players use that knowledge to their advantage.