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#31
01-20-2005, 09:56 PM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
[ QUOTE ]
40% he calls and loses he's not out, but crippled with 52K in chips or 9% [/ QUOTE ] I re-checked the chip count....Is it not 34K left in Carlo's stack if he calls and loses? He then gets to post the BB + ante, then SB + ante. In both cases, he is now out of position with few chips, and must get lucky as it is a certainty that he will get played with. Contrast that with letting the hand go in the name of stack preservation.....NOT to be confused with 'rocking up'. Regardless of how powerfull AKo is, it is still a drawing hand and figures to be at best a coin flip against an allin re-raise. Given the payouts, I can't see jeopardizing his potential earn at this spot. Let the hand go, see another orbit. Let's see if the small stack busts out. If he does, the dynamics of the table completely change, and so would Carlo's play. 
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#32
01-20-2005, 10:04 PM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
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Well, if the purpose of the play was to trap seat 4 then that's what happened. I don't understand what the question is. Call. [/ QUOTE ] Not quite....The plan went awry, and he ended up trapping himself. A call here ends up compounding what turned out to be a mistake. Most people would think that it's 'weak' laying down AKo here.....I disagree.....I think a strong player lays the hand down.
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#33
01-20-2005, 10:59 PM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 40% he calls and loses he's not out, but crippled with 52K in chips or 9% [/ QUOTE ] I re-checked the chip count....Is it not 34K left in Carlo's stack if he calls and loses? He then gets to post the BB + ante, then SB + ante. In both cases, he is now out of position with few chips, and must get lucky as it is a certainty that he will get played with. Contrast that with letting the hand go in the name of stack preservation.....NOT to be confused with 'rocking up'. Regardless of how powerfull AKo is, it is still a drawing hand and figures to be at best a coin flip against an allin re-raise. Given the payouts, I can't see jeopardizing his potential earn at this spot. Let the hand go, see another orbit. Let's see if the small stack busts out. If he does, the dynamics of the table completely change, and so would Carlo's play. [/ QUOTE ] Why does this have to be a coin flip at best? I think he could be doing this with a wide variety of hands, given that he is a very aggressive player, and is in a dog fight for 2nd place. You guys are assuming hes coming in with the goods, when this might not be the case. Once again, due to the player Im playing against, and the increased payout from 3rd to 2nd and from 2nd to 1st, I make the call here. But regardless of that, we should all be able to agree that his limp fold against an aggressive player is an awful move.
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#34
01-20-2005, 11:59 PM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
[ QUOTE ]
Why does this have to be a coin flip at best? I think he could be doing this with a wide variety of hands, given that he is a very aggressive player, and is in a dog fight for 2nd place. You guys are assuming hes coming in with the goods, when this might not be the case. But regardless of that, we should all be able to agree that his limp fold against an aggressive player is an awful move. [/ QUOTE ] ......fair question. It's just my opinion that, given the tournament situation at that time as described, that the over-aggressive player would not push all his chips in with trash. Why? Well, for one thing, he could simply wait for the blinds to get to the short stack, and move up a rung simply by doing so. The difference in prize money could motivate even an aggressive player to put on the brakes. We cannot assume that an aggressive player is also a stupid player, given that he made it down to the final four. As far as the limp fold, I hear ya. I don't know if I'd call his UTG limp awful. I do know that I would more than likely have raised 3x in that situation. The following action would then better define both my hand and the oppositions', whoever that might be. Also, let's not forget that the big stack was still in play.
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#35
01-21-2005, 12:03 AM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
i agree..it is absolutely ridiculous.
this is such an easy call it eally isn't close. Impressive making two mistakes in one hand: 1. Not raising in the first place (with the blinds and antes, I'd just as well assume take them without a fight) 2. Even considering not calling. All you have to do is put AQ, AJ into the equation, and it is an auto call. If he folds, he is almost in a tie for 2nd..people that say he has 2nd wrapped up are ridiculous. And if he were to lose, he can still hold on for 3rd most likely.
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#38
01-21-2005, 12:22 AM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
[ QUOTE ]
with these blinds and antes, the value of skill goes down a lot. would you agree then that the limp was terrible? [/ QUOTE ] ....the value of skill goes down if you are short stacked vs. the blind structure. Only one of the 4 players was. As I said earlier, had it been me, I would have probably made a 3x raise. The problem that I have with calling Carlo's play terrible is that I know him fairly well, and have much respect for his play. As I have not had the opportunity to discuss this with him personally, I have no direct knowledge of his motivation for making the play the way that he did. Yes, it would be easy to offhandedly dismiss the limp as terrible, but I want to find out more first. There may have been other factors in play that we are not aware of. I understand the need for many to 'wrap' this situation up in a simple, neat fashion. I just don't see it that way.
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#39
01-21-2005, 12:31 AM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
Very very tough decision.
If I felt like gambling I would call, if I did not I would fold. Very close decision here. If I lose I flip flop with him I win I knock him out and wait for player 3 to bust out. Most likely if I thought I played better then the villain I would fold and if he played better then me I call.
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#40
01-21-2005, 01:35 AM
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Re: Foxwoods $2000 NLHE Final Table Hand
[ QUOTE ]
It's just my opinion that, given the tournament situation at that time as described, that the over-aggressive player would not push all his chips in with trash. [/ QUOTE ] AQ-AT, KQ, KJs are not trash 4 handed. Also, he's a good player and has presumably been playing a long time with Carlo in this big tourney. If that's the case, then he probably has an idea that Carlo is playing weak tight and will fold a hand as good as AK. This question is much more interesting if the hand in question is AJs or TT.
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