easy does it

[MN_Mime]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

If Tommy drives out L2 for you and you're no longer fearing the 8, you're telling him you can beat overs or can draw to it and he's going to have to call 2 more.

If L2 is on the draw (or is letting the T bet out for his 8) but still finds a call then L3's in a bit of a pickle, but can Tommy handle any more action? I'm sorry, but I'm sure Tommy's beat if L3 pops him again in this scenario and may be drawing to a 1-outer.

Maybe L2's call keeps L3 in check; that's a table read we can't make. I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy doesn't play against you. His "special class of super retards" is completely different than the ones we see every day - which is probably why his play is often as mike l.'s gets on occasion, though in the other direction.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

Both results are better for us than him calling 1 bet if he has a legitimate draw.
-James


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. A lot of players could be in that spot with semi-legitimate draws though. Gutshots who think their pair draws may be live, and underpairs who think their hand might still be good. I think a lot of these would willing donate one bet all the way through on the chance their hand is good, or maybe be good if they hit their bad draw.

You are probably right in thinking that the pot is big enough we don't need to go for overcalls, and would be better off protecting our hand if we're ahead.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree with the reply... if your are confident in your reads after the flop you must put in a raise on the turn... otherwise stop trying to put people on a hand... if you're not going to use your ability to make more money...

The only question I see is where do you put in a raise...

Do you do it on the flop to thin the field and let your opponents define their hand... that is certainly what the L3 wanted to happen... my thought on the flop is interesting... i think the call is ok here b/c... you are not likely to get any reasonable draw to fold and definitely not an 8... so why not call... IMO call here lets opponents define hand a little better as it turns out... when everyone folded except for L2.... then the hands are reasonably defined and you must put raise in on the turn... otherwise you are just playing passively... and weak...

Overall... it depends on what you want to do... but a raise on one of the streets is imperative... and personally I would put it in on the turn...

[Michael Davis]

Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

A "player" will if he sees this opportunity. Not a weak-tight or a rock tho. They dont have the balls to make a move like that. I see the above mentioned "move" often enough on a weekly basis to agree completely with TA's play with certain lineups, as well as with other reasons already mentioned.

This is a depends hand. And I see good reasons for a few ways to play this hand. Tommy played it one way that I like under certain circumstances/lineups.

Why do so many think it's "auto this" or "auto that" and not even close? Possibly from lack of experience or knowledge of players/lineups?

Hell I dunno....just trying to expand my viewing screen. Maybe I'll see a new movie.

[andyfox]

"The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means 'no trip 8's'."

Usually yes. But probably somewhat less than usual if the guy knows Tommy. Tommy is more likely than, say, I would be, to check behind when everybody checks to him on the flop and also more likely than, say, I would be, to not raise on the flop with an overpair.

Paradoxically, knowing Tommy may make it less likely that the two guys behind Tommy have an 8, as they would probably be more aware of the possibility of the flop being checked through than were, say, I, the original flop raiser.

BTW, good to have you back. Glad to hear about your happy trip to India and your grandmother's fortitude.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm seeing alot of replies that go along the lines of "if you put L2 on a draw you should have raised the turn" If you look more carefully at the post you'll notice he didnt put him (L2) on a draw until after he (tommy) had already acted. So, the fact he puts him on a draw shouldn't really factor into the decision to raise or call the turn.

This is not the way I would play the hand, but I certainly see good reasons for playing it the way he did. Just my 2 cents.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three reasons:

Ace

King

Queen.

I usually agree with T, but this time I gotta think that these Jacks have been overplayed. This hand is frighteningly vulnerable and I think T should do everything in his power to end the hand as quickly as possible. The money I lose when someone plays back at me is not going to add up to the money I stand to lose when (close to an astounding 50% of the time) an overcard to my pair falls.

This is not the time to go all passive. If he plays back, I will slow down (probably not fold in Party 15/30 because who knows what they raise with there), but I am raising to get the other players out on the flop or charge them more to chase if that is their preference.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Party 15/30. Raise = "I have chips." Reraise = "I have lots of chips."