you can never be too careful

[Turning Stone Pro]

1) Sleep in a bunk bed under Oprah.
2) Watch "the Biggest Loser".
3) Shop for bras with my grandmother.
4) Have dinner with Clarkmeister.
5) Listen to Guy McSucker whine about another losing session.

Merry Christmas to All!

TSP

[TStoneMBD]

i dont know much about TA except that the majority of players on this forum highly respect him as a winning player, and i respect their opinions greatly. now that ive mentioned this, not raising this river, and not betting out with no reads is simply a losing play, no two ways about it. TA may be a very good player, but people are far too quick to just accept his poor plays for good merely because of his reputation. the river play here is bad. period.

[Tommy Angelo]

"I thought it was SOP to let a bluffer keep bluffing, and raising a person that you think is bluffing is just poor strategy."

Me too.

"It appears that Tommy believes this person is either bluffing or has quads or has the other K."

I did.

"If the guy is bluffing betting out is certainly wrong, as he'll just fold and a bluffer won't call a c/r, the most you get is one bet."

That would seem so yes.

"If the guy has quads betting out gets you raised (as it would by the other K) and you stand to loose 2 bets. If you c/r the guy with quads you get 3 bet, and have to call and loose 3 bets. If the guy has the other K you get raised when you bet and gain nothing, and the other K is not going to fold to a c/r."

And all of that too.

"Not only does this line not need to be "explained or justified away", it is the only way to maximize the river."

That's what I was thinking too. As it turns out looking back, the river was the only betting round that held no options. On a different day or at a different moment in that game, I might have folded preflop, or I might have bet the flop, or bet the turn or checkraised it. On no day would I bet or checkraise the river if I thought the guy was on a king or a six or a bluff.

Tommy

[goofball]

right. if you knew your opponent had either a K a 6 or a bluff then you are right it is best to just call it down. the problem is your opponentn didn't have any of these, he value bet his two pair, tried to buy it on the turn, and then value bet his full house. There are lots of hands your opponent can play like this that are not a K a 6 or a bluff

[jogumon]

[ QUOTE ]
That's what I was thinking too. As it turns out looking back, the river was the only betting round that held no options. On a different day or at a different moment in that game, I might have folded preflop, or I might have bet the flop, or bet the turn or checkraised it. On no day would I bet or checkraise the river if I thought the guy was on a king or a six or a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you checkraise the river, there are 4 possibilities (assuming you don't fold).

1) You get reraised by the 6 - lose 2 extra bets
2) You get reraised/called by the K - even
3) You get called by a worse hand, hoping to split - win 1 extra bet
4) Opponent folds - even

So, the decision should be based on whether its twice as likely that an opponent will call hoping to split, as they are to be holding the case 6. Nothing the opponent has done indicates they have the 6. They just kept betting when checked to. This can mean a very large range of hands. In fact, the best clue is the cold call of the raise preflop. How often does a cold call mean the caller has a 6 (well, maybe two of them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )?

I don't know the game you were playing in, the player in question, how passive he is, or how he viewed your play. All I know is that the game I play (Party 15), I checkraise, and expect to come out ahead in the long run.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
the river play here is bad. period.

[/ QUOTE ]


You don't think if Tommy bets out at the river he loses the opportunity to extract another bet out of the button? The button is playing the board on the river -- so there is a chance he doesn't call. Tommy's line got him an extra BB, which he can turn in for one of those insanely-good steaks from the steakhouse.

If I could manage to get out of bed with this damn flu, I'd be down there laughing at some of our locals trying to buy pots off him when he's sportin' the second-nuts check-calling his way through their racks.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[Kaz The Original]

Dear Tommy Angelo

In regards to your recent post on www.twoplustwo.com, we here would like to offer you the following advice.

Raise, you weak tight ninny.

Sincerely,
Lurkers Anoynmous.


P.S., I'm just kidding. I really, really like the way you play a lot of hands. It has opened my eyes to some meta game considations, my favourite being the AA hand where the flop came down with two queens and two spades. The phrase "I had been folding my BB at every opportunity. My expected win rate at this was 5 BB/100)" was ideal.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people call the check raise, hoping to split. I'm guessing a check raise gets called by a hand he beats more often than he gets reraised by a 6

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is a location thing, but the games that I play in, nobody calls a river c/r without at least AA. They might call a bet, but its unlikely.

[TStoneMBD]

if youre in a game where you think its more likely that the player will have a 6 then will call a cr playing the board, then you played it fine and i retract my statement. but, from the games i play in, it is far, far more likely to get called by a guy playing the board then for someone to have a 6 here. you also have no reads on the button here. keep in mind, if the button thinks playing the board is good enough to bet, hes almost certainly going to think its good enough to make a crying call to a cr.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
right. if you knew your opponent had either a K a 6 or a bluff then you are right it is best to just call it down. the problem is your opponentn didn't have any of these, he value bet his two pair, tried to buy it on the turn, and then value bet his full house. There are lots of hands your opponent can play like this that are not a K a 6 or a bluff

[/ QUOTE ]

His opponents only possible hands here are a K, a 6, a bluff, or AA. There is no other possible holding. Any other hand plays the board.

Justin A