GREG RAYMER= OVERATTED ON 2+2??

[Michael C.]

Aren't threads like this the reason pros stop posting to these Forums? I appreciate having a World Champion post here, but these attacks make guys like him and other top players go away. So is it really necessary to slam him? For the record my two cents says he's a good player, a nice guy,and he was fearless. Does that make him world class? It would take better players than me to know. But why slam him?

[quix0tic]

Thinking players are soooo overrated. I plan to win tournaments by being consistently luckier than the field. My style of play is to pretend to be crazy, snort, act retarded, and raise in increments of only 22. This obsessive behavior confuses my opponents into handing me their chips. If Raymer had a clue he'd stop pretending poker involved cognitive processes and start making animal noises at the table.

Who am I?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
I keep reading this ridiculously defensive posts and wonder which post these people read.... I JUST EXPLICITLY CONTRASTED RAYMER AND VARKONYI WAKE THE HELL UP AND READ A POST!!!

I NEVER SAID I HAD ANY POKER ACCUMEN.....OR COMMENTED ON RAYMER'S LEVEL OF ACCUMEN.....SO IM NOT SURE HOW THAT IS RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

AS FOR PEDIGREE IM NOT REALLY SURE HOW THIS SPECIFICALLY WOULD OR SHOULD QUALIFY ME JUDGE THE RELATIVE STRENGTH OF PLAYERS...WAS HOWARD COSSELL MUCH OF A PUGILIST??? THEN HOW COULD HE HAVE THE AUDACITY TO COMMENT ON ALI'S SKILLS VERSUS A FOREMAN CORRECT??OOOPS NO THATS JUST ACININE...AND SPECIOUS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Translated, please?

Anyway, you seem to be most agitated by your perception that these forums have sort of adopted Greg Raymer as "their own," sort of a legendary hometown hero or something.

I understand having a disdain for this type of thing. It makes me wamt to smack people in the head and call them a loser and tell them to get a life.

My point, though, is that you're off-base. Greg Raymer IS an excellent poker player. Are there a bunch of sycophants crawling out of the woodwork? Sure. Does that diminish his ability? No.

Mark Fuhrman tried to frame O.J. Simpson. Does that mean that he didn't murder those people?

Ok. Bad example.

Anyhow, the guy's legit.

Also, what the hell are you talking about? Of course you are inferring that you know enough about poker to assess Raymer's game. Why say that you're not? Your Cosell analogy was inane.

And stop shouting.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking players are soooo overrated. I plan to win tournaments by being consistently luckier than the field. My style of play is to pretend to be crazy, snort, act retarded, and raise in increments of only 22. This obsessive behavior confuses my opponents into handing me their chips. If Raymer had a clue he'd stop pretending poker involved cognitive processes and start making animal noises at the table.

Who am I?

[/ QUOTE ]

quix0tic.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

4) Nowone is suggesting Raymer is just some lucky stiff(see Robert Varkonyi) who lucked into a title; we are however saying he hasnt proven himself to be a consistently world class player and I for one think that is an undeniable fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anyone who has said that Raymer is a world-class player. To me, he was a very good amateur who played great poker and got lucky when he needed to. He's also had success in the past, finishing at the final table at the World Poker Open. You're setting up straw men here.

There are VERY FEW world class players. That's why they're world class. I don't put Arieh or Williams in that category either.

[ QUOTE ]

5) Most importantly there seems to be a unnatural and inexplicable bashing of Arieh and Williams on this board. While results since the WSOP point too both being superior players we still have threads posting up how badly Williams played hands 8 months ago....I for one am curious on where are the threads ripping Raymere for his horrid horrid horrid play in the TOC....as it looked far worse than anything Williams did in the main event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arieh bashing was mainly limited to his attitude during the WSOP. I was VERY impressed with his play during the WSOP, televised hands anyways. In fact I was more impressed with him than Raymer, though Greg probably didn't have the opportunities to make any big plays.

Williams bashing has been limited to 2 hands for the most part. The 55 hand vs. Arieh and the final A4 hand vs. Raymer. I sitll don't like the way he played the 55 hand at all, but if that's actually him posting in the other thread, then at least he has a reason for the way he did things, though I still think there were better lines to do it.

Now Raymer's play in the TOC is a different matter entirely. Where did you see "horrid horrid horrid" play at any time? He made some moves and got caught. That sort of thing happens in winner take all tournaments.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

4) Nowone is suggesting Raymer is just some lucky stiff(see Robert Varkonyi) who lucked into a title; we are however saying he hasnt proven himself to be a consistently world class player and I for one think that is an undeniable fact.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anyone who has said that Raymer is a world-class player. To me, he was a very good amateur who played great poker and got lucky when he needed to. He's also had success in the past, finishing at the final table at the World Poker Open. You're setting up straw men here.

There are VERY FEW world class players. That's why they're world class. I don't put Arieh or Williams in that category either.

[ QUOTE ]

5) Most importantly there seems to be a unnatural and inexplicable bashing of Arieh and Williams on this board. While results since the WSOP point too both being superior players we still have threads posting up how badly Williams played hands 8 months ago....I for one am curious on where are the threads ripping Raymere for his horrid horrid horrid play in the TOC....as it looked far worse than anything Williams did in the main event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arieh bashing was mainly limited to his attitude during the WSOP. I was VERY impressed with his play during the WSOP, televised hands anyways. In fact I was more impressed with him than Raymer, though Greg probably didn't have the opportunities to make any big plays.

Williams bashing has been limited to 2 hands for the most part. The 55 hand vs. Arieh and the final A4 hand vs. Raymer. I sitll don't like the way he played the 55 hand at all, but if that's actually him posting in the other thread, then at least he has a reason for the way he did things, though I still think there were better lines to do it.

Now Raymer's play in the TOC is a different matter entirely. Where did you see "horrid horrid horrid" play at any time? He made some moves and got caught. That sort of thing happens in winner take all tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

read your last paragraph again. try raising with dominated hands preflop, then calling over the top all-ins with those same hands because of pot odds.

[Myrtle]

I have read with bemusement the “damn with faint praise” implied character assassination that has been going on in regards to Greg on this board ever since his WSOP win.

There are many reasons why this kind of stuff happens......some are personal, and have to do with envy. Some come out of ignorance (the dictionary definition, not the mis-use of the word that is common today).

There is a difference between legitimately differing points of view between people. Over the years on 2+2, there have been many heated debates; the best are always when people debate the “merits and logic of their position”.......not merely their beliefs or opinions. From the former posts, many of us tend to learn, and broaden our understanding of whatever the topic was that was being discussed. From the latter, we mostly learn about the intellect, maturity and personality of the posters.

I would suggest that this latest string by zaxx19 tells us more about him and his apparent obsession with trying to attempt to minimalize Greg’s accomplishment.

Zaxx.......you ask if there is a bias on 2+2 in favor of Raymer. The answer is......yes. But.....WHY is it yes? If you would take the time to read his posts, you would surely understand........unless you do not possess the intelligence to do so. Have you done this?

In plain language, Greg, by virtue of both the content and the spirit of his posts, has earned the respect of virtually every thinking poster here. I just said.........EARNED......which cannot and should not be underestimated.

If anyone reading this is attempting to form a serious opinion about ANY of the players that one sees on TV, I believe that is very foolish, and blatantly ignores the fact that we see only what the producers and editors want us to see. I don’t think one has to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It’s just like most of the rest of the junk that we see on TV today....lowest-common-denominator drivel that is intended to sensationalize and titillate us......To capture our attention long enough so that we won’t switch the channel when the commercials hit......ka-ching!!!

So, to both zaxx and desdia I’d like to ask.........What criteria do you apply when forming your opinion about another person’s skill level in regards to poker? What is YOUR definition of an average, good, excellent, world-class player? What are the distinctions between them? How do you categorize, assign relative value and quantify those differences? What are the REAL differences between an amateur and a pro?

Now, I will tell you that these kinds of things have been amongst many of the poker topics that I have spent many hundred’s of hours discussing with Greg. Yes, Greg and I are good friends, but don’t mistake my intent in making this post as one of simply defending a good friend. Quite frankly, Greg doesn’t need me to do that for him......he does quite well on his own.

My intent here is to attempt to read into the record some 1st hand experience on this subject.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion about Greg’s skill level. However any logical person would certainly want to know upon what reasonably objective observations is your opinion based? Have you ever spent any time playing at the same table with Greg? Have you ever spent any time discussing poker strategy and tactics with him? Again, I will ask, have you ever reviewed the considerable volume of his posts on 2+2? If you cannot reply in the affirmative to the aforementioned, I would ask if you can put forward any other legitimate criteria upon which you can build a LEGITIMATE critique of ANYONE’S ability? If you can’t, quite frankly, how could you expect anyone who reads your posts to take them seriously?

There seems to be a few common themes that run in both of your posts, and they seem to be emotional in nature. If what you are trying to say is that you don’t respect “hero worship” based upon personal friendship or acquaintance....I am in agreement with you. But, I can’t help but miss the feeling that you’re both totally off the mark here.

Greg is well respected here on 2+2 because of his consistent, well-documented understanding of the game......not because he’s “one of the guys”. That’s junior-high school thinking, and IMO, that’s where both of you are stuck.

So, I’ll offer you this opportunity. PM me and let me know the next time you’ll be in our (Foxwoods, CT) neck of the woods. I will do my best to ensure that you have the opportunity to sit at the same table as Greg. After doing so, you will have had the opportunity to meet one of the criteria upon which one can objectively judge another players skill level.

I’ll be waiting to hear from either of you...............

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
I have read with bemusement the “damn with faint praise” implied character assassination that has been going on in regards to Greg on this board ever since his WSOP win.

There are many reasons why this kind of stuff happens......some are personal, and have to do with envy. Some come out of ignorance (the dictionary definition, not the mis-use of the word that is common today).

There is a difference between legitimately differing points of view between people. Over the years on 2+2, there have been many heated debates; the best are always when people debate the “merits and logic of their position”.......not merely their beliefs or opinions. From the former posts, many of us tend to learn, and broaden our understanding of whatever the topic was that was being discussed. From the latter, we mostly learn about the intellect, maturity and personality of the posters.

I would suggest that this latest string by zaxx19 tells us more about him and his apparent obsession with trying to attempt to minimalize Greg’s accomplishment.

Zaxx.......you ask if there is a bias on 2+2 in favor of Raymer. The answer is......yes. But.....WHY is it yes? If you would take the time to read his posts, you would surely understand........unless you do not possess the intelligence to do so. Have you done this?

In plain language, Greg, by virtue of both the content and the spirit of his posts, has earned the respect of virtually every thinking poster here. I just said.........EARNED......which cannot and should not be underestimated.

If anyone reading this is attempting to form a serious opinion about ANY of the players that one sees on TV, I believe that is very foolish, and blatantly ignores the fact that we see only what the producers and editors want us to see. I don’t think one has to be a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It’s just like most of the rest of the junk that we see on TV today....lowest-common-denominator drivel that is intended to sensationalize and titillate us......To capture our attention long enough so that we won’t switch the channel when the commercials hit......ka-ching!!!

So, to both zaxx and desdia I’d like to ask.........What criteria do you apply when forming your opinion about another person’s skill level in regards to poker? What is YOUR definition of an average, good, excellent, world-class player? What are the distinctions between them? How do you categorize, assign relative value and quantify those differences? What are the REAL differences between an amateur and a pro?

Now, I will tell you that these kinds of things have been amongst many of the poker topics that I have spent many hundred’s of hours discussing with Greg. Yes, Greg and I are good friends, but don’t mistake my intent in making this post as one of simply defending a good friend. Quite frankly, Greg doesn’t need me to do that for him......he does quite well on his own.

My intent here is to attempt to read into the record some 1st hand experience on this subject.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinion about Greg’s skill level. However any logical person would certainly want to know upon what reasonably objective observations is your opinion based? Have you ever spent any time playing at the same table with Greg? Have you ever spent any time discussing poker strategy and tactics with him? Again, I will ask, have you ever reviewed the considerable volume of his posts on 2+2? If you cannot reply in the affirmative to the aforementioned, I would ask if you can put forward any other legitimate criteria upon which you can build a LEGITIMATE critique of ANYONE’S ability? If you can’t, quite frankly, how could you expect anyone who reads your posts to take them seriously?

There seems to be a few common themes that run in both of your posts, and they seem to be emotional in nature. If what you are trying to say is that you don’t respect “hero worship” based upon personal friendship or acquaintance....I am in agreement with you. But, I can’t help but miss the feeling that you’re both totally off the mark here.

Greg is well respected here on 2+2 because of his consistent, well-documented understanding of the game......not because he’s “one of the guys”. That’s junior-high school thinking, and IMO, that’s where both of you are stuck.

So, I’ll offer you this opportunity. PM me and let me know the next time you’ll be in our (Foxwoods, CT) neck of the woods. I will do my best to ensure that you have the opportunity to sit at the same table as Greg. After doing so, you will have had the opportunity to meet one of the criteria upon which one can objectively judge another players skill level.

I’ll be waiting to hear from either of you...............

[/ QUOTE ]
But he called aces with TT!

[Myrtle]

ROFLMAO..........

B&lt

[AngryCola]

Hi Myrtle,

Desdia's logic seems to be based on Greg's recent results (or lack thereof) in major tournaments.

Desdia:
"...when we talk about players like Negreanu and Juanda, these guys are a threat to reach the final table in EVERY tournament they play. they, in turn, back it up with their play year in and year out. their RESULTS signify the greatness..."

I, for one, can't argue with results oriented thinking.
It's impossible. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]