Which play is worse?

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you do a simulation for seats instead of hands or players?

Let's say a regular $20-40 game went for a million years with no rake or tipping. And we had stats on everything. And instead of looking back to see how a certain hand scored, like AK, or how a certain player scored, like you or me, we looked instead at how each seat scored. We'd add up the button's score on each of the million hands. And the cutoff's. And on around for each seat. We'd end up with ten numbers, in dollars, that added up to zero.

Can you do a sim like that? And how close do you think the results would be to the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of sim do you want? Every player seeing every flop and playing as normal from there? Each player playing S&M type starting hands? Every player playing like a Commerce regular?

If you post specifics I'll run something and post it later.

FWIW, I would say that sims for unraised pots with each player having the same postflop profile are remarkably accurate for determining positional and starting hand values.

[Tommy Angelo]

"FWIW, I would say that sims for unraised pots with each player having the same postflop profile are remarkably accurate for determining positional and starting hand values."

Then do that one and solve for positions. Thanks!

[Turning Stone Pro]

This is what a "world class player" is expected to earn? I rather sit at a toll booth.

I remember a quote from a young kid in "Boyz in the Hood" or one of those movies . . . .. .
"I make more money than that doing nuthin."

TSP

[Tommy Angelo]

"My main problem with everything you said is that you seem to assume that the button provides you with position that's clearly superior to being in the blind when it's 10-way to the flop and that's not always the case."

Oh my. We appear to be from different planets! The thing I had mistakenly assumed was that we meant the same thing when we used the word "position!"

The way I define the word "position" in my mind, the button always has better position than the blinds. I'm not saying my definition is better or worse than yours. But it is sufficiently different to meltdown this conversation.

"I think the idea of the button is a lot more valuable to you than the button itself."

I'm looking at this as a mystery to be solved, like a few other things that used to really puzzle me. Now I have a system for figuring them out that starts with trusting myself.

For example, let's say it's late at night and the $20-40 game is down to three players, me, moe and curly. Moe and curly represent a cross section of all the players I encounter in the night. With rare exceptions, these facts will hold true:

1) My edge in a three-handed game with moe and curly is big.

2) My edge is a headsup game against moe or curly is none, at best, and I might be the underdog. And I know this to be true even though I have played only a dozen times headsup. (<--that's what I meant by trusting myself.)

For years I denied it. I just figured, okay, I don't like playing headsup, so I don't. But I was lying to myself. I knew that if I could make good money playing headsup, I would. I realized there had to be something about headsup that made if fundamentally unprofitable for me, especially compared to three-handed and four-handed. Once I got that far, I was free to theorize as to how facts 1 and 2 could both be true. And I found the answer. And the answer itself provided a huge leap in my understanding of position, and that led to questions that led to questions that led to this thread about 94.

That's because the 94 thing is like the headsup thing all over again. Just as I knew facts 1 and 2 were true, despite the illogic of it all, I also know that is it far worse for me to call a raise from the BB with 94o than it is for me to limp behind the field with it on the button. And it's not close. (And I'm not talking about meta-game stuff here. I'm talking by-the-hand EV.)

So I have set about to solve the mystery of the 94. I'm hot on the trail, but still missing one or two key clues.

Tommy

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
...I also know that is it far worse for me to call a raise from the BB with 94o than it is for me to limp behind the field with it on the button. And it's not close. (And I'm not talking about meta-game stuff here. I'm talking by-the-hand EV.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Well I suspect I know the answer, then. Since you can't play 94o on the button so brilliantly relative to the field's much better hands to make that big of a difference (of 15 SB), you must in fact then play the blind truly atrociously.

There, I solved it for you. No fee required;-) Either that, or it could be that your recollection of your results is atrociously off instead. Or it could be, say, half-and-half.

The blind is expected to do worse than the button of course, which accounts for part of your perception. But not, in a $20-$40 game, $300 worse per given hand. If that were true, and you realized it and your opponents did not, you could easily earn hundreds of dollars per hour at $20-$40 rather than somewhere between twenty and sixty dollars per hour.

[bigfishead]

I still say raise it on the button, fold it in the BB. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Diplomatdcm]

except he said 15 is the min. in a full game, and it is usally higher, and honestly, expect for some online players, if you want to be a pro it is/should be for the love of the game, not money. If you want money go to law school.
Dave

[Turning Stone Pro]

Where do you think I learned to be such a pain in the ass, argumentative, and generally unpleasant?

TSP

[Diplomatdcm]

hahaha, nice.

[Tommy Angelo]

"Well I suspect I know the answer, then."

I'd be surprised if you knew the question.

Tommy