I am getting sick of my friends saying "Raymer just got lucky."

[jwvdcw]

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It's not that Raymer isn't good, but it's also not that he didn't just get lucky. It's a combination of both, although I like to think that in his case, it was definitely more luck. He'd get all his chips in with hands like KQ and AJ without a second though. It worked for him in the WSOP, due to winning the coin flips. But did you watch the TOC? He didn't win his coin flip with KQ against a lower pocket and with I think 9T against 88. Bam, he was out. The same thing could have happened in the WSOP, but didn't. In the TOC, in my opinion, he was exposed as a truly inexperirnced player.

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Did you just start playing poker last week? If you can't figure out when he was in the coin flips he was in, then you don't understand poker.

I'll take a coin flip with KQ when I have 2 Million and my opponent has 150,000 all the time.

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Everyone seems to conveiniently forget the coinflip he was in against Matusow when it was Greg who was outchipped and risking his entire tourney on a coinflip midway through it all.

[Cleveland Guy]

Fair point.

However he did push in - which is a lot different than being called. He also pushed in with 2 over cards and the Nut Flush draw. I don't think many people would have called here, and also I think Mike had about a 3-2 chip lead on him. He was very crippled after losing this.

I think it would have been looked at much differently if Greg called the all in here.

[fireman664]

The man has been on here answering tourney questions for a long time. Many, Many (myself included) people on here have soaked up a wealth of information from him. He was HIGHLY regarded well BEFORE the WSOP... So why is it now, when he cashes, people want to bring him down? I'll tell ya, JEALOUSY!! Look, EVERYONE got BOTH lucky AND unlucky at times in that tourney, but the facts are he WON it (with class I might add). So those of you who want to bash, you have no ground to stand on. His results speak.

Thanks Greg for continuing to lurk and post here, WE appreciate it (most of us)

fireman

if you think he got lucky, so be it. Your just not going to convince those of us who have used him to further our own game.

[mackthefork]

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Anyway, I really don't care if I "prove" myself to you or anybody. However, I would love to know why you are on what appears to be a vendetta against me on this issue.


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I don't understand why anyone would care, Desdia is to busy spending half his day trying to unpick flawless logical agruements to improve his game or to read anything worthwhile.

On the point of luck, sure everyone (yourself included) must know it takes some luck to get past 2600 people in a poker tournament, it also takes incredible judgement to figure out when to push/call those countless number of times without coming unstuck at some point, everyone knows its a balance of the two that makes a great player, I personally think you got that down. I look forward to seeing the programmes in the coming weeks, in the meantime enjoy your success you earned every cent, and I can't see any reason why you won't win another big one again in the near future (as much chance as most others who enter i guess).

Best Reagrds Mark

[BarronVangorToth]

Greg is a great player - I've seen him in action enough times live at Foxwoods to know it.

But did he get lucky? Absolutely. I don't believe you can win any event nowadays with these 2500+ entrants without SOME luck involved along the way.

But he is absolutely a great player as well, far better than most of us will ever be.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

[Desdia72]

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The man has been on here answering tourney questions for a long time. Many, Many (myself included) people on here have soaked up a wealth of information from him. He was HIGHLY regarded well BEFORE the WSOP... So why is it now, when he cashes, people want to bring him down? I'll tell ya, JEALOUSY!! Look, EVERYONE got BOTH lucky AND unlucky at times in that tourney, but the facts are he WON it (with class I might add). So those of you who want to bash, you have no ground to stand on. His results speak.

Thanks Greg for continuing to lurk and post here, WE appreciate it (most of us)

fireman

if you think he got lucky, so be it. Your just not going to convince those of us who have used him to further our own game.

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i call it like i see it, straight up-- no chaser. i have never once bashed anything about Greg. just because i'm not screaming halleluah at every insignificant point brought up to combat the luck factor in why he won is'nt jealousy. what results are you speaking of? two wins in 4 years?

[citanul]

Look Desdia,

You seem to really pick and choose what you're reading at any given point. When someone points out his tournament results are good, you talk about how Foxwoods isn't the center of the poker world (the largest casino in the world, right? might be mistaken). When someone points out his success at cash games, you say "no proof." When someone points out that he has an immense knowledge of theory, you say theory isn't results. When someone tells you his results are good...

In this most recent ridiculous post, you say that he has
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what results are you speaking of? two wins in 4 years?

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Which, if you would just even for one damn second read Greg's post, you would realize is stupid. He told you that he plays about, what, 10 events a year, and that he has been playing for 4 years. Say he's played in 40 events. Each with a minimum of 100 entrants. Oh, here, let's make it better. Let's say he's played in 100 events. Now, even at 100 events, incredibly inflated, he has 2 wins. Clearly above average. He has a bunch of final tables that aren't wins. Clearly above average. Now, if you consider shrinking that down to the actual number of tournaments played, you'll see how silly the results argument is.

He doesn't play the tournament circuit full time. Get it? Is that so hard to understand?!

Why not answer Greg's question, or have you not actually read his post? I would understand that you probably have him blocked, after all, he's just another annoying troll who's posts waste your time.

Since I have a second, how about some more. The "Foxwoods isn't the center of the poker world" argument is clearly silly as well. Do you see why? Could it be that there is no center of the poker world? Wherever there's felt, a deck, chips and people tipping badly, there's the new center of the poker world. Routinely beating any game makes you better than your competition, by definition. Routinely beating the biggest game available means that you are better than the best competition available to you. Not quitting your job and moving your family to vegas so you can play a bigger game doesn't make you an inferior player, just because you don't destroy your life to play bigger.

Desdia: People have already AGREED WITH YOU that there was A LOT OF LUCK INVOLVED with Greg winning this year. Amazingly, you were able to get that right. People have AGREED WITH YOU that GREG'S SAMPLE SIZE IS SMALL FOR LARGE TOURNAMENTS. What the hell do you want? And why, as Greg asked, do you clearly have some kind of problem with him?

citanul

[Desdia72]

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or something? While it's true you've never said anything nasty or blatantly wrong about me, you sure give the impression that you'd love nothing more than to make everyone believe I'm a chump who just got lucky for a week, and who is likely never going to do anything much ever again.

While it is completely true that one cannot correctly say I'm a good player based upon the WSOP this year, every time somebody brings up another form of evidence, you put it down. They say I'm a respected player at Foxwoods, in cash games and tournaments, and you discuss why that's meaningless. They say I'm respected here on 2+2 for consistently giving good tournament advice, and you put that down, saying it only proves I can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Apparently, the only evidence you'll accept is for me to go out and win a bunch of other big events. Of course, if I fail to do so in the next year or two, that doesn't prove I'm a flash anymore than winning this year's main event proves I'm not just a flash.

You or somebody pulled my record from the Hendon Mob website in another thread. Somebody said it looked pretty weak. I guess they don't understand much about the subject. I have historically entered 1-4 events in the WSOP for the past 4 years, about 4-7 events at the World Poker Finals at Foxwoods, and about 2-4 events at the New England Poker Classic. There have been very few other events I've entered that would be reported in this database, maybe another half-dozen total. So, in the last 4 years, I've played in maybe 60-80 reported tournaments. I've won 2, and made another handful of final tables. Since the average field in these events (discounting the 2576 in this year's WSOP) was well over 100, I'd say that's pretty good. It doesn't prove I'm world class, but, I'm not sure any record could prove that point, unless it was so extreme that there was no alternative explanation left.

You kept comparing me to pros, who are less well known (now), but who have better records. Well, that's not a reasonable comparison. They were playing up to double the number of events per year that I played in 4 years. I would hope that they won a lot more often, and made a lot more final tables. If they didn't, I doubt you would have 4 years of records of their results to report. ;-)

Anyway, I really don't care if I "prove" myself to you or anybody. However, I would love to know why you are on what appears to be a vendetta against me on this issue.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

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a vendetta to speak the real, and despite the way it seems, it ain't personal. if i was in your position, i would feel the same way about my own results. let's say the roles were reversed: Ok, i won the WSOP ME for $5 million and i caught alot of lucky breaks on the way. i would acknowledge that and leave it alone. it does'nt matter whether i recognized situations or reads that got me in coinflips that turned in my favor. *Desdia shrugs his shoulders and says, "i was fortunate, it could've went the other way*. who cares whether i [Destin] am a very respected cash game and tourney player at ONE casino. none of this makes me any more special or worthy of respect than the next man or player. i don't need to point out how respected i am and i don't need others to do it either. in the overall scheme of things, what does it really matter anyway? i don't care about being the best, i don't care whether others think am the best. i do me and hopefully along the way, The Almighty bestows me with enough blessings to be successful. does the fact that i [Destin] give good tourney advice mean anything?
no, i certainly would'nt use that as a reason to bolster my image as a good player or as a reason why i won. if a player or players benefit from advice i have given, great, if they don't, oh well. what i [Destin] pride myself in is how well i perform over a period of time. if i am to be considered good or world class, what do my results say? am i a consistently profitable cash game player? when i play tournaments, how often do i cash, make the final table, or win? am i the type of player where my play and results do the talking, rather than others or myself having to hype them?

two players that i respect alot also don't do alot of talking. those two players are Barry Greenstein and Phil Ivey. their cash game and tourney results do the talking for them, so even when others steps up with praise and respect, you know where to look for WHY.

i don't wish any ill will toward you. i don't downplay your WSOP ME win but i do put it in it's proper perspective. it's ONE tourney win, that's it...plain and simple. you don't have alot of sparkling tourney statistics, that's the truth...plain and simple. had you had more final tables and wins in which to reference, i would'nt be in this thread. i respect results, i don't respect hesay/shesay. in the environment where i'm from, nobody wants to hear talk, they expect to see actions and results from those actions. people who talk to much about what they've done get their mouths closed alot. the people who keep their mouths closed, go about their business, and produce are who get the respect. anybody can look good for a game but how many look good for a career?

[binions]

As I understand it, while Greg got lucky on 2 hands at the final table when he a huge chip lead and could afford to gamble, he didn't get it all in with the worst of it at any other time all week.

As for luck, how about Johnny Chan's 11 coin flips in a row in the ME? Surely Chan is a great player.

Or Sammy Farha last year, calling all in against quads early in the tourney and hitting his SF.

Luck can't be the reason someone is not a great player, because every tournament winner got lucky at some point, including the multiple tournament winners.

[Paul Phillips]

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As for luck, how about Johnny Chan's 11 coin flips in a row in the ME? Surely Chan is a great player.

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Is this oft-repeated legend (which I've heard with every number from 8 to 20 in it) actually documented anywhere reliable? Not that it's all that far-fetched, but I don't think it belongs in the realm of "known fact".

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Or Sammy Farha last year, calling all in against quads early in the tourney and hitting his SF.

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That's how legends get started I guess. The money went in after he hit the straight flush, not before.