The officail "who needs school thread"

[MortalNuts]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are truly convinced you learn better on our own, than you do at school than you either are taking the wrong classes or you aren't cut out for schooling. Just reading things on your own and learning them yourself has a nasty habit of giving you some general principles but leaving you lacking any true mastery of the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure whether you're simply saying that everyone learns better from a combination of independent reading plus instruction than from reading alone, or whether you're instead implying that everyone learns more from lectures than from reading. If the latter, I guess I disagree pretty strongly.

I've been in lots and lots of courses, both as a student and as a teacher. There absolutely are students who are really really good at textual learning, but who are really bad at picking up information from a lecture (even a well-delivered one). An excellent professor will attempt to reach these students in other ways -- e.g., by giving them written lecture notes that supplement the textbook (if there is one), extra visual materials, etc. But that kind of extra effort is sometimes hard to come by, particularly in large survey-type classes.

I might agree that for every student and every subject there is probably a professor, somewhere, who can make that subject come alive better than the student could on his own. But for some students, that teacher may be exceedingly hard to come by, and the knowledge that he/she exists is basically useless -- given the options available to them, I really think certain students really would be much better off reading textbooks and not attending lectures than vice versa.

Your other point, about the kind of mastery you usually acquire when studying on your own, is I think more a statement about being challenged to use your knowledge than about book vs. lecture learning. That is, I doubt that someone who attended quantum field theory lectures for six months but never worked any problems in the subject would really have any better grasp of the subject than someone who just read a good QFT book for those six months. What often sets the classroom experience apart from independent study is that you're constantly having to solidify what you've already learned, by using it on problems or exams or in-class grilling by the prof or whatever. I'm not saying that has to be the case -- a highly motivated independent student could of course assign himself problems and so on, and a highly crappy instructor could likewise neglect these things -- but more often than not this is part of what sets in-class instruction apart. Of course there are also subjects for which no adequate textbook exists, and so it's extraordinarily difficult to get a background in these things by yourself -- you simply don't know which papers to look at, which people to talk to, etc.

A general comment, which really doesn't apply all that directly to your post: I think most people underestimate how genuinely difficult it is to really master a subject, either on your own or with help from instructors and the like. My phd advisor used to say that you only sort of learned something the first time you heard it in a class, no matter how good you are or how well-taught the class. Maybe you see it again a year later, and it sticks a bit more. Then maybe you have to study it for your comprehensive exam a few years later, or you have to use it in your research, and now it really begins to solidify. But you don't really, really understand it until you have to teach it to someone else. And I've basically found that to be true, unless the subject is exceptionally simple or the initial exposure exceptionally powerful.

Bah, I'm rambling. I suspect we don't actually disagree on that much -- for most people, not learning in class is probably indicative of something other than a real predisposition toward indepedendent text-based learning. The point is there are plenty of exceptions to this rule.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[Eurotrash]

[ QUOTE ]
the irony of the mispelling

[/ QUOTE ]


Yikes, i'm probably getting myself in over my head here, but the additional irony is just too great [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Eurotrash]

but of course

edit - woops, here

[_2000Flushes]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm probably getting myself in over my head here

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

-2kF

[Eurotrash]

please spare me, I meant well. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[The once and future king]

Life is better with options. A University degree gives you these. Without a degree there are millions of opportunities you will be frozen out of.

Basicaly you have made a conscious desicion to drasticaly narrow your horizons.

Also you may want to look at average earnings of those with a degree compared to those without.

[LALDAAS]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The numbers detailing the bump in average yearly income that come with extra schooling are pretty staggering if you check them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt that education will get you more money. My point is that not everyone needs formal education to make money and that those who have the drive and ability to, can succeed without it and do just as well or even better then those that are educated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am just guessing here but i think the people making a lot of money without an education work a lot harder than those who make a lot of money with with education.

Im not much for hard work, so i'll get mine the easy way.

Also for much of college its just a big hoop to jump through to prove you are willing to put in the time and effort and have the ability to learn. That way when they hire you they know you are trainable and willing to work.

rJ

[/ QUOTE ]

I will agree with this statement. I never went to collage. I pullin around 70k a year (Which isnt alot anymore, well in NJ anyway), However the above statement is true. I work for my income. A friend of mine works for the same company and went to collage for 4 years and is a IT guy. If he works more then 3 hours a day actually working thats alot. I work 11 hours a day. We have the same income.

Do you need school, no!

Does it help, Yes!

It took me 8 years to get where I am by busting my arse. He had fun going to school for 4 years.

To each is own.

One thing I would like to ask is how many of you know peeps who went to school, finished, and work a crap job. I have several friends who are working in a field that has nothing to do what they spent 4 sometimes 5 years to learn and an ass load of cash.

[Duke]

The poll is retarded because you're confusing schooling with education. They're absolutely distinct.

~D

[Michael Davis]

The average amount of money made has a lot to do with the fact that people who graduate are more intelligent and have a strong work ethic. If you possess both of these qualities but don't finish school, you're going to succeed.

-Michael

[nicky g]

This thread should be retitled "the official too cool for school thread."