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#31
10-10-2005, 07:38 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Do you bet AK here? [/ QUOTE ] There is actually more value to be gained by betting a weaker hand like AT or AJ when the board doesn't pair on the river as opposed to AK. W/AT or AJ you are more likely to fold a hand that has you beat than by betting AK. [/ QUOTE ] True. 
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#32
10-10-2005, 07:46 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
I really can't even comment on your first paragraph; it is straight donkey material. Go read small stakes hold'em then pm Ed Miller and tell him he is a weak tighty because of his advice regarding playing AQo. Trust me (and you can read for yourself), his book is not in line with your suggestions about how to play this hand. Sure your reasoning regarding position, limiting the field, gathering information is right on, but you have picked the wrong hand to do this with. P.S. Assuming all the other players are idiots is idiotic; in most cases they are not that dumb and you are not that good. Ed Miller does not advocate presuming a player you have never played against is an idiot. In fact, if you look in just about any reputable poker book there will be some statement along the lines "never underestimate your opponent". "I have an excellent hand with position. I am not folding unless I get a read" LOL. Get a grip. Sometimes you just have to fold nice hands and it has nothing to do with being weak. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps my copy of SSH is from an alternate Universe, written by an Ed Miller who would say things like: "Play very tightly from early position, and do not cold-call raises with offsuit hands (except ace-king and sometimes ace-queen, with which you should reraise)." And: "If the raiser will raise with some weaker hands . . . do not fold AQ[o]; reraise instead." - Ed Miller, Small Stakes Hold'em, p.73 Furthermore, assuming that your opponent may well be "underestimating" him for the moment, but it is the statistically correct thing to do. While Ed Miller does not in fact make that exact recommendation, he does make it's corollary (which is what I was misremembering a bit): "Our advice is to follow the loose game guidelines until proven otherwise. That's because at the small stakes there are so many confused and poorly skilled players that failing to play the extra hands should prove far more costly those times when you should play them than they will save you those times you should throw them away. So assume the game is loose until proven otherwise." - Ed Miller, Small Stakes Hold'em, p.93 Now, Ed simply CANNOT advise you to ASSUME that the game is loose precisely BECAUSE the average player is "confused and poorly-skilled" without the implication that you can also assume that any unknown player is poorly-skilled. I 3-bet AQo against unknowns from early position, and I make money at it. Tell that to the donkey.
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#33
10-10-2005, 07:49 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
NOTICE AQ IS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. PLEASE HOPE YOU UNKNOWN OPPONENT DOES NOT HAVE ONE OF THE HANDS ABOVE YOU! NICE POST [/ QUOTE ] It's called "Caps Lock." Learn it, use it, love it. AQo is probably near the bottom of the list because of weak-tight dillholes folding it.
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#34
10-10-2005, 07:58 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
I for one cannot BELIEVE the weak tight advice I am seeing here. Autofold AQo to an unknown early position raiser in $3-$6? Madness. In the absence of information to the contrary, I assume unknown opponents are poor. I believe that Ed Miller specifically emphasizes this concept in SSH, although I may have the wrong book, I can't recall. If you can't assume that an unknown player is poor, you need to find a better table. I have an excellent hand with position. I am not folding unless I get a read. My hand is offsuit, so I would like to shut out the field. I raise. I gather information about the strength of my opponent's hand. Does he cap? If he caps and I miss, I am done with the hand. If he caps and I hit, I play very, very carefully unless I hit it very, very hard. 3 betting allows me to win many pots where I am not best but my opponent can't call. 3 betting takes control of the pot. 3 betting AQ conditions my opponents to call me down when I have AK, AA, KK, etc. Do I run into big hands like AA, KK, QQ, and AK? Of course. But AQo is a tidy winner for me over the last 50k hands. [/ QUOTE ] In the tight games section of SSHE Ed Miller does not say to reraise AQo. These are just general guidelines but I would double check your info this before you start quoting Miller. The hands from late position he says to reraise an early position raiser with are AA-TT AKs and AK. He says to play AQs, but AQo is left off the list. Now these are general guidelines and whatnot and if you have any reads at all against the original raiser it is an easy decision, but so many times someone sits down and i'll hit AQo or AJs and say "damnit" and sometimes raise, only to be dominated, or fold, only to question the decision. Hence the original post Very good discussion so far
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#35
10-10-2005, 08:03 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I really can't even comment on your first paragraph; it is straight donkey material. Go read small stakes hold'em then pm Ed Miller and tell him he is a weak tighty because of his advice regarding playing AQo. Trust me (and you can read for yourself), his book is not in line with your suggestions about how to play this hand. Sure your reasoning regarding position, limiting the field, gathering information is right on, but you have picked the wrong hand to do this with. P.S. Assuming all the other players are idiots is idiotic; in most cases they are not that dumb and you are not that good. Ed Miller does not advocate presuming a player you have never played against is an idiot. In fact, if you look in just about any reputable poker book there will be some statement along the lines "never underestimate your opponent". "I have an excellent hand with position. I am not folding unless I get a read" LOL. Get a grip. Sometimes you just have to fold nice hands and it has nothing to do with being weak. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps my copy of SSH is from an alternate Universe, written by an Ed Miller who would say things like: "Play very tightly from early position, and do not cold-call raises with offsuit hands (except ace-king and sometimes ace-queen, with which you should reraise)." And: "If the raiser will raise with some weaker hands . . . do not fold AQ[o]; reraise instead." - Ed Miller, Small Stakes Hold'em, p.73 Furthermore, assuming that your opponent may well be "underestimating" him for the moment, but it is the statistically correct thing to do. While Ed Miller does not in fact make that exact recommendation, he does make it's corollary (which is what I was misremembering a bit): "Our advice is to follow the loose game guidelines until proven otherwise. That's because at the small stakes there are so many confused and poorly skilled players that failing to play the extra hands should prove far more costly those times when you should play them than they will save you those times you should throw them away. So assume the game is loose until proven otherwise." - Ed Miller, Small Stakes Hold'em, p.93 Now, Ed simply CANNOT advise you to ASSUME that the game is loose precisely BECAUSE the average player is "confused and poorly-skilled" without the implication that you can also assume that any unknown player is poorly-skilled. I 3-bet AQo against unknowns from early position, and I make money at it. Tell that to the donkey. [/ QUOTE ] Most of these are directed for games of 3/6 and 4/8 live, which play more like .5/1 online, and in these games I would almost always reraise. But in 3/6 online, which plays like 10/20 or higher live, it is a tougher decision. BTW right now I am at 0.39bb/100 with AQ, but I feel like this could be a lot higher. Glad to see I am over the donk average of .31/100 though
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#36
10-10-2005, 08:05 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I really can't even comment on your first paragraph; it is straight donkey material. Go read small stakes hold'em then pm Ed Miller and tell him he is a weak tighty because of his advice regarding playing AQo. Trust me (and you can read for yourself), his book is not in line with your suggestions about how to play this hand. Sure your reasoning regarding position, limiting the field, gathering information is right on, but you have picked the wrong hand to do this with. P.S. Assuming all the other players are idiots is idiotic; in most cases they are not that dumb and you are not that good. Ed Miller does not advocate presuming a player you have never played against is an idiot. In fact, if you look in just about any reputable poker book there will be some statement along the lines "never underestimate your opponent". "I have an excellent hand with position. I am not folding unless I get a read" LOL. Get a grip. Sometimes you just have to fold nice hands and it has nothing to do with being weak. [/ QUOTE ] Poker Room Total EV stats ordered by value Cards EV Count AA 2.32 550,632 KK 1.67 551,878 QQ 1.22 549,570 JJ 0.86 550,948 AK s 0.77 367,870 AQ s 0.59 368,178 TT 0.58 550,156 AK 0.51 1,106,047 AJ s 0.43 367,811 KQ s 0.39 366,191 99 0.38 552,062 AT s 0.33 367,393 AQ 0.31 1,101,249 [/ QUOTE ] NOTICE AQ IS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. PLEASE HOPE YOU UNKNOWN OPPONENT DOES NOT HAVE ONE OF THE HANDS ABOVE YOU! NICE POST [/ QUOTE ] Cards EV Count AA 2.32 550,632 KK 1.67 551,878 QQ 1.22 549,570 JJ 0.86 550,948 AK s 0.77 367,870 AQ s 0.59 368,178 TT 0.58 550,156 AK 0.51 1,106,047 AJ s 0.43 367,811 KQ s 0.39 366,191 99 0.38 552,062 AT s 0.33 367,393 AQ 0.31 1,101,249 KJ s 0.29 365,921 88 0.25 550,710 QJ s 0.23 368,213 KT s 0.20 368,086 AJ 0.19 1,103,946 A9 s 0.18 368,279 QT s 0.17 365,398 KQ 0.16 1,103,231 77 0.16 553,492 JT s 0.15 367,811 A8 s 0.10 368,982 K9 s 0.09 367,736 AT 0.08 1,105,376 A5 s 0.08 367,900 A7 s 0.08 369,231 66 0.07 549,696 KJ 0.07 1,105,604 A4 s 0.06 367,553 Q9 s 0.06 367,923 T9 s 0.05 367,750 J9 s 0.04 369,223 QJ 0.03 1,102,901 A6 s 0.03 366,998 55 0.02 550,840 A3 s 0.02 367,269 K8 s 0.01 369,893 KT 0.01 1,103,705 98 s 0.00 368,190 T8 s -0.00 366,732 K7 s -0.00 367,647 A2 s 0.00 366,466 Also, do you realize these stats are from every player playing them from every position in any circumstance, right?
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#37
10-10-2005, 08:12 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
Most of these are directed for games of 3/6 and 4/8 live, which play more like .5/1 online, and in these games I would almost always reraise. But in 3/6 online, which plays like 10/20 or higher live, it is a tougher decision. [/ QUOTE ] If you practice good game selection, you should be sitting at tables where the average player is poor. [ QUOTE ] BTW right now I am at 0.39bb/100 with AQ, but I feel like this could be a lot higher. Glad to see I am over the donk average of .31/100 though [/ QUOTE ] I'll have to get my other machine hooked back up to get my numbers. In the midst of an in-house move.
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#38
10-10-2005, 08:15 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
Your book is not fromsome other universe, you just do not read well. Loose games has nothing to do with a particular player, but rather how many people are seeing the flop. That is how he deciphers the different starting hand requirements. Secondly, if you have played much 3/6 online, then you know that there are not usually an average of more than 3-5 players per flop. In general, a very good online game has an average of FOUR players seeing a flop. I think that qualifies as tight. Hence, the tight strategy proposed by Ed Miller which does not advocate playing this hand or three betting here. Of course, there are times when it is the correct play, but doing it all the time is spewing. I have not once in this thread ever advocated cold calling with AQo. If I play it, I generally reraise. I just don't do it blindly. Also, when people say they never fold this hand I generally think "CLOWN" but that is a whole other story.
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#39
10-10-2005, 08:22 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know if I had any reads or not, so lets assume unknown. [/ QUOTE ] try paying attention at the table then, because this hand is completely player dependant. Lag raise/Rock fold/
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#40
10-11-2005, 12:08 PM
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Re: I dislike AQ example 1
[ QUOTE ]
BTW right now I am at 0.39bb/100 with AQ, but I feel like this could be a lot higher. Glad to see I am over the donk average of .31/100 though [/ QUOTE ] Hooked my other machine up long enough to open PT. AQo is winning at 0.46BB/100HP for me. But I'm sure it would be MUCH higher if I just folded it . . .
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