Party 750k cripple-me hand

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold PF to the reraise, even though it is a min-raise, more often than not you are just throwing chips away with this gapper in this spot, and I'd rather conserve for a better spot than this. You will still have an average stack, and are more likely to get action after the table has seen you being capable of folding to a min-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how it can be a good thing to let the table see you fold to a min-raise. Sure, it works great if you pick up AA next orbit and someone decides to play back at you, but to win the tournament you are going to need to make money with hands much worse than AA. Encouraging people to take shots at you is not the way to make that happen.

You simply have monster odds to call the min-raise and I really don't care if you lose those chips "more often than not," as that is not what odds are all about.

[grandgnu]

I like the steal attempt (I would've just raised 2.5x the BB in that spot though)

The min-re-raise had me putting him on A/A or K/K or A/K in that spot as well. A "please call me!" bet. I didn't expect him to have the A/Q, which would normally induce a push if he's going to play out of position.

He played it rather donkish. I can't see you getting away from the flop once you hit your gin card, and you wound up ahead of him. But I might fold to his re-raise and wait for a better spot as well, since he's representing a hand that has me beat, and I have enough chips to be averaged stack, and position to wait for a better opportunity.

When blinds are lower, I rarely fold to the min-raise. But this was a re-raise of your initial raise, and I don't think I like committing 6x the BB on a 10/8 hand, although pot odds aren't so bad and your opponent made a failed bluff on the flop.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the steal attempt (I would've just raised 2.5x the BB in that spot though)

The min-re-raise had me putting him on A/A or K/K or A/K in that spot as well. A "please call me!" bet. I didn't expect him to have the A/Q, which would normally induce a push if he's going to play out of position.

He played it rather donkish. I can't see you getting away from the flop once you hit your gin card, and you wound up ahead of him. But I might fold to his re-raise and wait for a better spot as well, since he's representing a hand that has me beat, and I have enough chips to be averaged stack, and position to wait for a better opportunity.

When blinds are lower, I rarely fold to the min-raise. But this was a re-raise of your initial raise, and I don't think I like committing 6x the BB on a 10/8 hand, although pot odds aren't so bad and your opponent made a failed bluff on the flop.

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He is not REPRESENTING a monster hand with a minimum raise, just because that's what you put him on. If someone raises before the flop and then checks the flop, I may be highly suspicious that they have a big hand, but that doesn't mean he represented a big hand by checking.

Everyone is so determined to never, ever fall for that ol' minimum raise trick, that they are throwing away a very clear call. There is no reason you can't reevaluate on the flop, but folding your hand for 3k more is just absurd.

[schwza]

my problem with calling is that even if you flop one pair, you're now in a ~neutralEV spot since villain has an overpair so often. if you miss, you lose the pot (at least, i'm not doing anything without at least a pair or good draw).

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
He is not REPRESENTING a monster hand with a minimum raise, just because that's what you put him on. If someone raises before the flop and then checks the flop, I may be highly suspicious that they have a big hand, but that doesn't mean he represented a big hand by checking.

Everyone is so determined to never, ever fall for that ol' minimum raise trick, that they are throwing away a very clear call. There is no reason you can't reevaluate on the flop, but folding your hand for 3k more is just absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that the pot-odds are nice, you can get away from this hand with 17K remaining in your stack and wait for a better spot. By calling, you're creating a pot so large that there is pretty much zero doubt that you both are not going to lay down for such a large pot.

Blinds are 750/1500
SB posts 750
BB posts 1500
We raise to 4500
Pot is now: 6,750
SB re-raises to 7,500
Pot is now: 9,750

We must call another 3K, so we're getting over 3 to 1 odds to call, with position. We just call:

Pot 12,750

We now have 13,500 remaining. The pot is so large compared with both our stack and that of the villians that it's going to be difficult for either of us to get away from this hand. When villian bets 5K into the pot, there's no way he's folding to a push, the pot is just offering him too much money to call in this spot.

Whenever someone gives me great odds like that, and I'm not a large stack that can take a huge hit without it short-stacking me, then I need to figure out why he's offering me such great odds.

Yes, not all players are tricky, understand pot odds, etc. Some of them are total donks and make donkish plays. But my buddy Mr Moo fell into a trap in a big Party Poker tournament.

He had position and raised about 1/3 of his stack (was getting shorter-stacked) with A/Q. A larger stack in the blind min-re-raised him. The blind was giving him great odds to call, and there was no way if he did call that all the money wasn't going to get into the middle. His opponent held K/K and just made it too desirable for him to get all his money in as an underdog.

If the stacks were deeper in the above scenerio, I might opt to call and take my chances. But when I don't have much wiggle room, I will likely give up the steal attempt with such a marginal holding and wait for a better opportunity.

[arkady]

For those saying; fold to a min-raise....Would it be reasonable to say that unless you are willing to call a min-raise you should not be raising?

But given the situation is it worth raising to 4500 given the stack size only to fold a min-raise? Or do the steals work often enough in these situations that in the long run (if there is such a thing) it makes the steal a worthwhile gamble?

[grandgnu]

[ QUOTE ]
For those saying; fold to a min-raise....Would it be reasonable to say that unless you are willing to call a min-raise you should not be raising?

But given the situation is it worth raising to 4500 given the stack size only to fold a min-raise? Or do the steals work often enough in these situations that in the long run (if there is such a thing) it makes the steal a worthwhile gamble?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a 2.5x the BB raise is more appropriate, when blinds get this high relative to the stacks, usually this is enough to take the blinds.

When you get played back against in this spot, you are usually behind. Given villians play, I'm going to put him on a hand like Q/Q, K/K or A/A that is looking for action (that wasn't the case THIS time, but I think most of the time such a play will mean that type of hand)

So with a hand like 10/8 suited you're going to need a miracle flop in this spot to win the hand. If your opponent is on an overpair, then you are a 20% to 80% dog in the hand, and only getting 3-1 on your call. So you really aren't getting the right odds in this spot, if Villian is on that hand.

In this particular case, you were actually 40% to 60% in the hand, so you are getting a great price on your call. But in most cases, again, I put them on a strong pocket pair, so even if I hit one of my cards, I'm still behind and in trouble.

[fnurt]

Let's try and do this the scientific way. What % of the time do you put them on a big pair, what % of the time do you put them on big unpaired cards, what % of the time do you put them on random junk making a move?

Among total donks (i.e. in your Wednesday night game) a minimum raise often means nothing more than "I think you're bluffing, but I'm not going to risk all my chips to find out," so I do think you have to assign some number to the 3rd category.

[allenciox]

I disagree here. This is 750k guaranteed on Party, right? So most of the players are not total donks. I know that if I am in the BB, there are exactly 2 hands that I would make that minraise with --- AA and KK, and I would do that almost every time. Why? Because it works... people are too tempted to call that minraise without realizing that it pot commits them. Most good players are the same way. Without a better read, I would figure the majority of players in the 750k would not make a min-reraise in that situation with AQs --- it is an incredibly donk play. There is NOTHING wrong with the attempted steal preflop --- but you need to let the minraise go.

[fnurt]

But people do make this move with less than AA and KK. You guys have to get past this line of thinking that goes, "this is a weird play I would only make with hand X, therefore he most likely has hand X." Other people are not you. Heck, apparently I should start making this play with 72o, as all the good players seem to "know" that it means AA.