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#31
09-27-2005, 06:24 PM
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Re: 15/30 Raise the overcards here?
Aces,
My main feeling about the free card play is that it is generally overused. The very, very important point that most people miss is this: If you attempt a free card play, and instead get three-bet and bet into on the turn, you are now paying 1 BB more than you would have had you just called. Hence, when you are attempting a free card play, you are RISKING 1 BB in an attempt to save .5 BB. Therefore, a free card play needs to have an expectation of working at least 2/3 of the time to merit attempting it. There are numerous factors that tend to make a free card play less worth attempting, including: 1. A pot that is many ways, where you are at risk of getting reraised in multiple spots. 2. A large pot which your opponents are going to attempt to protect especially vehemently. 3. Aggressive opponents. 4. Bad/loose/aggressive table image, which will induce others to play particularly hard against you. And so on and so forth. I think that many people are of the Lee Jones "Buying Free Cards is the Sign of an Expert Player" school of thought, and hence attempt to buy free cards in situations where it is unfavorable and is actually costing them bets. Just a thought. 
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#32
09-28-2005, 05:49 PM
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Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
if we increase our equity, why does it matter that we increase another opponent's equity as well? We're still bettering our chances of winning the pot. [/ QUOTE ] This was my thinking after the hand was over. This is almost straight out of TOP, although Skalnsky uses a Stud example where we are raising when we know we are in 2nd place but by knocking out 3rd place we increase our equity. The fact that we also increase 1st place's opponents equity is neither here nor there since the pot is big and we would like to increase our chances of winning it.... and investing an extra SB to do so is nowhere close to being a mistake. Unlike stud though, there is a chance we have the best hand on the flop or can promote it to the best one by folding out middle pairs either here or on the turn when we follow through. Anyway. I ended up just calling the flop. UTG came along with as well. UTG and I both called on the turn as well which was a blank. The river double-paired the board though and I folded when donker bet again. UTG called with AK and split with donker who had A5o for no pair the whole way and a "pair of 5's" draw. Ugg. Without being results oriented....I think given our position relative to the donker and the size of the pot makes a flop raise the clear play to make. This play might be overused by some... but it does have merit and spots where it should still be used. I am going to try to find them. Still learning, tpir
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#33
09-28-2005, 05:57 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] if we increase our equity, why does it matter that we increase another opponent's equity as well? We're still bettering our chances of winning the pot. [/ QUOTE ] This was my thinking after the hand was over. This is almost straight out of TOP, although Skalnsky uses a Stud example where we are raising when we know we are in 2nd place but by knocking out 3rd place we increase our equity. The fact that we also increase 1st place's opponents equity is neither here nor there since the pot is big and we would like to increase our chances of winning it.... and investing an extra SB to do so is nowhere close to being a mistake. Unlike stud though, there is a chance we have the best hand on the flop or can promote it to the best one by folding out middle pairs either here or on the turn when we follow through. Anyway. I ended up just calling the flop. UTG came along with as well. UTG and I both called on the turn as well which was a blank. The river double-paired the board though and I folded when donker bet again. UTG called with AK and split with donker who had A5o for no pair the whole way and a "pair of 5's" draw. Ugg. Without being results oriented....I think given our position relative to the donker and the size of the pot makes a flop raise the clear play to make. This play might be overused by some... but it does have merit and spots where it should still be used. I am going to try to find them. Still learning, tpir [/ QUOTE ] tpir, i think the donker had A5s clubs for a flush draw. is that wrong?
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#34
09-28-2005, 06:50 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
Just to be clear, if you knew that CO was ahead of you, raising would almost certainly be wrong. Like I said earlier, when you are raising your equity by only around 5% it is not worth the extra sb in almost all cases. You and aces are correct though that it doesn't matter too much when you raise your opponents' equity as long as you raise your own. It's just a question of how much.
Really though, this hand and hands like it are all about how often you have the donk bettor beat. Obviously there was still some chance you had the best hand based on the result, which makes this a good spot for a raise imo. This is a good example of why reads help so much in this game.
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#35
09-28-2005, 07:11 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
tpir, i think the donker had A5s clubs for a flush draw. is that wrong? [/ QUOTE ] I know he had the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] but I thought his hand was offsuit for some reason. I would have to go back and look.
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#36
09-28-2005, 07:17 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
tpir, i think the donker had A5s clubs for a flush draw. is that wrong? [/ QUOTE ] You were with me in IRC when tpir first posted a pokerhand version of this hand and we saw the results together.
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#37
09-28-2005, 07:30 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] tpir, i think the donker had A5s clubs for a flush draw. is that wrong? [/ QUOTE ] You were with me in IRC when tpir first posted a pokerhand version of this hand and we saw the results together. [/ QUOTE ] ....and? I just can't remember if he had a flush draw or not. tpir made it seem like he didnt in his last post, but I think he did.
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#38
09-28-2005, 08:09 PM
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Re: 15/30 Raise the overcards here?
Well done. Honestly I found both sides compelling, but this sealed it for the lust call line:
[ QUOTE ] If we're raising to protect, we damn well better be betting the turn. If we're raising on a draw, then that's just stupid for all the reasons I've already mentioned. [/ QUOTE ] If we are behind the flop bettor who has a hand like 99, then all raising will do is chase hands Hero has beaten and is dominating out of the hand. We want those guys calling for obvious reasons. The thing is, there is "on the fly" thinking. WD, you have made a good argument throughout this thread, but I can only wish I was good enough to apply this reasoning in the heat of battle. I tend to say [caveman voice] "Big pot, hit raise, must win big pot at all costs." [/caveman voice] Nice post/thread.
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#39
09-28-2005, 09:47 PM
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Re: Final thoughts and results
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] tpir, i think the donker had A5s clubs for a flush draw. is that wrong? [/ QUOTE ] You were with me in IRC when tpir first posted a pokerhand version of this hand and we saw the results together. [/ QUOTE ] ....and? I just can't remember if he had a flush draw or not. tpir made it seem like he didnt in his last post, but I think he did. [/ QUOTE ] He had A5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or A6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
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#40
09-29-2005, 12:46 AM
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Correction
[ QUOTE ]
He had A5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or A6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. [/ QUOTE ] You guys are both right and I am wrong. I went back and found the pokerhand link and it was A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Sorry for the confusion. We are all friends here (I hope).
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