15/30 completing the small blind

[astroglide]

thanks. or i'm offended. i don't know.

[Ulysses]

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what does this clarify? and how does it clarify it?

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It clarifies that in the PokerRoom EV stats, the EV is based on starting from before you put out the blinds. Part of the EV of 82s in the SB is the fact that you lose .33BB in the hand if you don't complete.

Look, the question here is simple. Is completing with a given hand plus or minus EV?

If you fold, a decision with EV = 0, your EV for the hand will be -.33BB.

If by calling, the overall EV of the hand is -.25, then completing the SB is a +EV decision. If by calling, the overall EV of the hand is -.45, then completing the SB is a -EV decision.

The PokerRoom numbers I showed clarify that the EV for the hand includes the money you contribute in the blinds. Or else people are playing Q6o very strangely from the blinds.


[ QUOTE ]
if that wasn't your point, what is?

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My point was that your response to Bear was incorrect. The EV of the hand is not 0 when you fold the SB. It is -.33BB.

[ QUOTE ]
now even i'm a bit clueless. how is the overall ev now less after folding? where did the extra 5% of a bb loss come from?

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We know what the overall EV is when you fold. It is -.33BB. The difference comes from making a slight profit the times you complete.

If you are still confused, think of it like this.

You play a 15/30 poker game. You start with $100. Every hand, you will be in the small blind w/ 82s. You fold every time.

You contend that the EV of 82s in the SB when you fold = 0, thus after 10 hands you will have $100.

I contend that after 10 hands you will lose 10*(.33BB) = $100 and you will have $0.

Someone can do the math and figure out which is correct.

[Sal Allegra]

Raise and try to steal on the flop, and if your re-raised, dump it, but if they fold, show the hand, then change gears, play good starters, and get some more calls of off your ligit hands.

[Ulysses]

To be clear, the EV of folding always = 0. The question here is whether calling has EV > 0.

The PokerRoom #s reflect the expected win/loss of a hand starting from prior to any blind money being put in.

So, if one is using those numbers to decide whether calling is a +EV decision or not, one needs to take into account that in the small blind, the number to compare to is -.33BB (the amount you lose in the hand when you fold) as opposed to 0 (the EV of the decision to fold).

[astroglide]

can somebody please clarify this for me? dci says that folding is 0 ev, and calling is +ev. uly says that folding is 0 ev, and calling is +ev. i have agreed. where is the debate?

[SoBeDude]

Ulysses,

You rock, as usual.

Thanks for the very clear explanation. The call is +EV for the games represented in the pokerroom stats .

I'm willing to bet the average pokerroom hand has more than 2 opponents, and each opponent less than the average will have a significant effect on the EV of the hand. And lets face it, we don't have a lot of wiggle room here with this call.

Lets just say the average hand has 3.5 opponents when you complete the SB, then completing with 2 opponents must be -EV.

Do you agree?

Thanks again,

-Scott

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
To be clear, the EV of folding always = 0. The question here is whether calling has EV > 0.

The PokerRoom #s reflect the expected win/loss of a hand starting from prior to any blind money being put in.

So, if one is using those numbers to decide whether calling is a +EV decision or not, one needs to take into account that in the small blind, the number to compare to is -.33BB (the amount you lose in the hand when you fold) as opposed to 0 (the EV of the decision to fold).

[/ QUOTE ]

im with you. stupid mistakes as usual.

now my question shifts to the blind structure used to compute these #'s. if the blind goes in and is counted, it creates biases if the blinds are all different sizes and structures.

in any case, it is clear, then, from what you say that you must call here in a 15/30 game. but what about a 3/6? hand only costs now 1/6 of a bb instead of 1/3. cost of completion is now 2/6 or 1/3 bbs. those that complete with 82s have a -.25 ev on average and only cost themselves -.16666 by tossing the hand.

so according to the chart, its correct to call in 15/30 and fold in 3/6. personally i agree with this and would do likewise.

but was that the intended purpose of the chart? how does it account for the different frequencies each blind is encountered? or is it done at one limit? just curious.

thanks again ulysses
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

it was a semantic debade based on my poor comprehension of the stats and stupid mistake. its all cleared up. we agree. no debate. EV of folding is 0. ev of calling is + (-.28- (-.33)). EV of HAND is -.33 given the fold. at least i hope i got that right lol.
-Barron

[Nightwish]

I skimmed through the replies (so pardon me if I missed it), but I didn't see anyone mention the fact that you don't get to complete the action on this round. The BB does. Therefore, the probability of the BB raising is critically important here.

[Ulysses]

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Therefore, the probability of the BB raising is critically important here.

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Good point.