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#31
08-13-2005, 07:48 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
If you agree with me then you are not confused. That is one of God's axioms.
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#33
08-13-2005, 08:24 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
Eastbay-
I dont see how indoctrination has anything to do w/ the statement about Hitler's 'wicked' deeds from an atheistic perspective. You contradicted yourself. First, you asked incredulously whether I was really saying that apart from God, it's impossible to discern whetehr mass murder is (truly) wrong. Then, immediately after this, you side w/ Sklansky, agreeing that mass murder is not (truly) wrong. To answer your question, "no, mass murder is not truly wrong in an atheistic world." It would be just as valid to say that mass murder is the greatest value, and that everyone shouuld kill and destroy as many as possible. Each statement is equally valid in atheism. W/o an all good, all powerful God, there is no way to determine whether mass murder is wrong. To even posit the question is meaningless. Sklansky gets it- why dont you? That is partially why i posted this in the first place, b/c so many so-called atheists fail to grasp this obvious truth, probably b/c they cannot handle a world where mass murder is not truly wrong. Of course, you can attempt to make yourself feel better by resorting to utiltarian/practical type theories of morality, but these also all lead to the same place, and in the end mass murder is still not ABSOLUTELY TRULY WRONG, as Christians should believe it is.
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#34
08-13-2005, 08:30 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
[ QUOTE ]
W/o an all good, all powerful God, there is no way to determine whether mass murder is wrong. [/ QUOTE ] That's like saying without an all powerful God, there's no way to determine whether Shana Hiatt is hot. Wrong. Just as our brains are good at making hotness judgments, they are also good at making moral judgments. No gods are needed in either case.
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#35
08-13-2005, 08:44 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
[ QUOTE ]
If I say Britney Spears has some moral rules that she's revealed to us, how is that any different from you saying that Yahweh has some moral rules that He's revealed to us? [/ QUOTE ] Brit ain't God. [ QUOTE ] In both cases, the rules could have been invented or they could have always existed independent of anybody's invention. [/ QUOTE ] This is just a statement that morality doesn't exist. Which is, of course, the question.
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#37
08-13-2005, 09:01 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
[ QUOTE ]
Eastbay- I dont see how indoctrination has anything to do w/ the statement about Hitler's 'wicked' deeds from an atheistic perspective. You contradicted yourself. First, you asked incredulously whether I was really saying that apart from God, it's impossible to discern whetehr mass murder is (truly) wrong. Then, immediately after this, you side w/ Sklansky, agreeing that mass murder is not (truly) wrong. [/ QUOTE ] No, I didn't. I'm not going to bother reading beyond this. I suspect you want to define "truly" in such a way that it is indistinguishable from "because God said so." In which case you are playing silly games that are a waste of time. eastbay
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#38
08-13-2005, 10:12 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
Atheistic morality = Prisoner's Dilemma
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#40
08-13-2005, 10:50 PM
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Re: atheistic morality
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
You might want to consider how much in the Bible is (IMHO) morally repugnant and condoned (or even ordered) by God, before you start looking for moral flaws in atheism. Just the tip of the iceburg: [ QUOTE ] 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. They took the women and children captives, and burnt all their cities. 31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho. 31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. 31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. Moses was angry with the officers saying: "Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. [/ QUOTE ] Lets ignore for the moment the question of how the adults of the enemy cities were treated. There's your God's prophet, telling his followers to murder all the innocent little boys, and take all the innocent little vigin girls to "keep for themselves", ie. rape and enslave. Which "absolute" morality are you refering to? There certainly isn't one in either the OT or NT (even if considered seperately, which of course makes no sense when talking absolutes).
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