Failed screw play

[mmcd]

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Point taken. But I think you have to do some check raising to balance the check folding. On what type of hands do you do this? I could see myself doing it with flush draws and exactly a hand like you described. This 3-betting with TPTK feels too aggressive for me. Which limit do you play? I am at 3/6 and I feel that calling down is the play if I get raised with TPTK.

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This stuff is more applicable to the more agressive 10/20 and higher games. You're right that 3-betting the turn with TPTK at 3/6 probably isn't a good idea since more passive players need a strong hand to raise your turn bet in the first place.

I honestly don't do a whole lot of check/folding on the turn when I have the preflop/flop lead out of position, but I'll certainly bet/fold there though.

Besides, balancing just isn't that important until you get 30/60 or maybe even 50/100 or higher. Your opponents at the lower limits are unlikely to be sophisticated enough to notice/take advantage of minor systemic imbalances in your game.

[donger]

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.


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This is definately much more applicable to higher more aggressive games where you are unlikely to get free river cards anyways and your opponents are more willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with top pair ok kicker type hands. And with regard to picking up an extra bet when your opponent had planned on folding the turn, it's much more advantageous to fire the 2nd barrel more often and sometimes pick up the whole pot with the worst hand.

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I think, that if you keep blindly firing OOP in aggro games, you're going to be forced into folding the best hand way more often than you'll be picking up the pot.

The other benefit of the screwplay that I forgot to mention is that it gets your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. Most people who get screwplayed don't fold, even though they should.

[mmcd]

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.


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This is definately much more applicable to higher more aggressive games where you are unlikely to get free river cards anyways and your opponents are more willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with top pair ok kicker type hands. And with regard to picking up an extra bet when your opponent had planned on folding the turn, it's much more advantageous to fire the 2nd barrel more often and sometimes pick up the whole pot with the worst hand.

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I think, that if you keep blindly firing OOP in aggro games, you're going to be forced into folding the best hand way more often than you'll be picking up the pot.

The other benefit of the screwplay that I forgot to mention is that it gets your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. Most people who get screwplayed don't fold, even though they should.

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It's not like I'm blindly firing the turn with no hand. Since I already have the lead going into the turn, that means I've already either:

Check-raised the flop against an in-position preflop 3-bettor.

Checkraised the flop against a preflop raiser in a bb defense.

Bet the flop after 3-betting a preflop raise out of the sb.

or

Bet the flop into a preflop cold-caller.

When you checkraise the turn, your opponent has to call 2 bb's to see a showdown in an X bb pot. When you wait until the river to checkraise, your opponent only has to pay 1bb to see a showdown in an X+2 bb pot. And turn bet/3-bets are more likely to commit your opponent to calling down than turn check/raises both psychologically and mathematically.

[ErrantNight]

if it's two pair you have a lot of outs.

[SteveY]

I havent read this thread, but Nate made a good thread about screwplaying: http://tinyurl.com/7gr3h

my memory is fuzzy, but i remember him saying something like he employed the screwplay most during his 10/206max as a balancing play, and also in the thread he admits it might have been FPS.

[donger]

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.


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This is definately much more applicable to higher more aggressive games where you are unlikely to get free river cards anyways and your opponents are more willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with top pair ok kicker type hands. And with regard to picking up an extra bet when your opponent had planned on folding the turn, it's much more advantageous to fire the 2nd barrel more often and sometimes pick up the whole pot with the worst hand.

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I think, that if you keep blindly firing OOP in aggro games, you're going to be forced into folding the best hand way more often than you'll be picking up the pot.

The other benefit of the screwplay that I forgot to mention is that it gets your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. Most people who get screwplayed don't fold, even though they should.

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It's not like I'm blindly firing the turn with no hand. Since I already have the lead going into the turn, that means I've already either:



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You're confusing me.

[mmcd]

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You never get free cards when you want them this way, though. Screwplaying is better for that reason alone. It also gets an extra bet from an opponent who had planned on folding the turn, but changed course when you checked. I play 5/10 6max FWIW.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is definately much more applicable to higher more aggressive games where you are unlikely to get free river cards anyways and your opponents are more willing to put 3 bets in on the turn with top pair ok kicker type hands. And with regard to picking up an extra bet when your opponent had planned on folding the turn, it's much more advantageous to fire the 2nd barrel more often and sometimes pick up the whole pot with the worst hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think, that if you keep blindly firing OOP in aggro games, you're going to be forced into folding the best hand way more often than you'll be picking up the pot.

The other benefit of the screwplay that I forgot to mention is that it gets your opponent psychologically involved in the hand. Most people who get screwplayed don't fold, even though they should.

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It's not like I'm blindly firing the turn with no hand. Since I already have the lead going into the turn, that means I've already either:



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You're confusing me.

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Button open-raises, I 3-bet K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] out of the small blind. Flop comes J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet and get called. Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I'm betting again. At this point, there's 4.5bb in the pot, and betting again has enough fold equity to justify it. If he raises, I fold, but I'll have a real hand (that 3-bets or calls down a raise) often enough in this spot that he can't profitably auto-raise my turn bet as a default.

This is actually the type of hand where a bet/bet/checkfold line is warranted.

*Just to clarify, my KTs is ahead of the buttons open-raising range, so even though I missed the flop, I'm not exactly firing on the turn with "no hand". I could very well be value betting against a 10-out 2 live cards/gutshot combo (i.e. 97), and possibly induce a horrible fold.

[Lmn55d]

you've posted a lot of really good stuff in this thread. Post more often in HUSH please.

[Lmn55d]

2 Good Posts about negatives of screwplay. I pretty much totally agree with mmcd in this thread. If I was gonna checkraise I'd checkraise the river. Also when you take an odd line like this on the turn you must see the showdown against most players.

Nate Tha' Great : http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...o=14&fpart=

J_V: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5454&page=

Enjoy!

[Nietzsche]

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Nate Tha' Great : http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...o=14&fpart=


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Pure gold, thanks!