wolfowitz a legitimate target?

[Gamblor]

Rightfully? Given that they were the inhabitants of the territory, and assuming the prinicple of self-determination, for hundreds of years.

In 1948 there were 1.2 million Arabs and 600,000 Jews there. That hardly consitutes a random smattering. That said, the vast, vast majority of those Jews had not been born there and had only been there for a decade or less. Their only claim to the land was based on religion, which is not a great basis for the solution to complex international problems.

I thought we already established Judaism as a nation as well as religion. Given that, if the Jewish nation is historically proven via Roman, Greek, etc. etc. documents to have been exiled from the land, do they not have a right equal to it? Given the truth that most hadn't been born there, why do the Palestinians still have any right to anything there, seeing as they haven't been born there?

It is a random smattering if there are no organized state institutions, which there weren't.

"What Israeli court would? Are you really denying that Shamir was involved?

Yes I am. You are taking hearsay as fact. He was never tried in any international court, and I'd imagine killing a UN mediator would warrant at the minimum a trial.

It should be noted that the Arab world outright rejected the Bernadotte plan, as Syrian officer Muhammad Nimr al-Khatib said, “Most of these mediators are spies for the Jews anyway.”

It is so typical of you to generalize all Israelis as one. If one Israeli does something immoral, the entire nation be damned.

I cannot begin to defend each and every Israeli action, because there are terrorist elements in Israel too - Kach and Lehi come to mind. But those groups are marginalized and they are arrested, even banned.

Even Sharon, yoru great scapegoat for all that is unholy, has been cleared by all elements of judicial inquiry of anything beyond negligence in the Sabra and Chatila massacre. Yet you, and the Arab world continues to exploit the incident - even as Syria makes allies with Hobeika, the Phalangist personally responsible for the massacre.

Yet the Palestinians collective support of "martyrdom operations" does not register on your radar.

[nicky g]

"I thought we already established Judaism as a nation as well as religion. Given that, if the Jewish nation is historically proven via Roman, Greek, etc. etc. documents to have been exiled from the land, do they not have a right equal to it? Given the truth that most hadn't been born there, why do the Palestinians still have any right to anything there, seeing as they haven't been born there?"

The Jews in 1948 no longer had any direct connection to the land. If there is a statute of limitations on such claims, I think it would have expired well before 2000 years passed. There was no piece of land or property of which any Jew could say truthfully say "this hill belonged to my great great great great great etc" grandfather. Use some common sense.

As for today's Palestinian refugees, obviously 100% return is impractibale. But there are clear differences in the situation. The state that exiled them still exists; any of today's or recent Israeli leaders were amongst those who exiled them; many victims are still alive; the international system is more or less the same; those who weren't born then have clear claims to certain houses villages, pieces of land etc that belonged their parents or grandparents and which they can clearly say they would have inherited; thousands still have deeds, keys to homes etc. That;s not to say they should all be allowed to return; they couldn't all be, and may wouldn't want to. But the state of Israel still has to acknowledge their disposession and make some kind of redress such as no-strings, reasonable offers of compensation. Even a mere apology or acknowledgement of the illegitimacy of their disposession would go a long way towards healing such wounds.

"You are taking hearsay as fact. He was never tried in any international court, and I'd imagine killing a UN mediator would warrant at the minimum a trial."

What are you talking about? Since when have international courts been able to try Israelis? Who would ahve handed him over? There have been no international trials of anyone, despite numerous breaches of international law. Were there international trials following the Israeli shelling of the UN base at Qana, killing dozens of refugees and UN employees? Has there been a UN trial for the UN employee Iain Hook, killed last year by an Israeli smiper. No international court has the power to try any Israelis, and with the current attitudes of Israel and the US towards the International Criminal Court, none ever will.

"It is a random smattering if there are no organized state institutions, which there weren't. "

There were colonial governing institutions from Ottoman and British rule. Saying it was just a random smattering of people with no rights of self-determination is no more true than it would have been of India, for example; the people who had been living on and farming the land for centuries had rights to self-determination on it, regardless of the fact thay they had yet to form an independent state.

"It is so typical of you to generalize all Israelis as one. If one Israeli does something immoral, the entire nation be damned. Yet the Palestinians collective support of "martyrdom operations" does not register on your radar."

I do not mean to lay the blame with all Israelis. Everyone here routinely talks about "Israelis" and "Arabs" or "Palestinains" as shorthand for various active factions in the conflict. I don't think the people of Israel are to blame for everything that the State of Israel has done. Nevertheless it seems absurd for the pro-Israelis to lecture others their support for terrorism when at least three of their elected leaders have been clearly implicated in acts of terrorism.

[Gamblor]

Even a mere apology or acknowledgement of the illegitimacy of their disposession would go a long way towards healing such wounds.

Fair enough. Israel has considered for a long time, and more and more Israelis support the notion of some compensation.

Has there been a UN trial for the UN employee Iain Hook, killed last year by an Israeli smiper. No international court has the power to try any Israelis, and with the current attitudes of Israel and the US towards the International Criminal Court, none ever will.

I believe a Palestinian led suit in Belgium was thrown out.

Furthermore, that these UN compounds are havens for people they believe to be "freedom fighters" but in fact plan terrorist acts, makes the UN compund a legitimate target for soldiers attempting to arrest terrorists. Army intel showed various terrorist activities in the UNRWA compounds as well as in Amnesty International offices.