Chan/Liebert: Wow. How Bad Can They Play?

[Skip Brutale]

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Hi everyone,

This is sick. Liebert has Chan out-chipped 1.1 mil to .3 mil (3 to 1). Blinds 20-40k. She moves all-in with QJs, He folds K7o. How can he fold here? Next hand, he raises to 140K, leaving himself with ~200K. He has 54s. How can he not move in with this hand, if he chooses to play? What's he gonna do, fold if she comes over the top, getting 2.5 to 1? Maybe he's trying to lure her into calling with his 5 high. Then comes the best part: she picks up KJ, and just calls the raise. Luckily for her, she flopped a J, because she was gonna fold to an all-in on the flop.

Sick, I tells ya.

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So either you are a better headsup player than Chan and Liebert. Or you are stupid enough to not understand their play and think you are better.

[P Carr]

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P.S. How badly did Seed play his 77? Even in his exit interview it seemed like he had no clue what he was doing or why he was doing it when he smooth called. He actually said the words, "I'm not really sure why I did it, etc etc."


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Wasn't Seed's move w/ 77 a classic stop-n-go? I thought it seemed a reasonable choice. I think the flop was Jxx (maybe JTx). If she had two overcards or a pair smaller than JJ, that would be tough for her to call. He knew he'd get called if he moved in pre-flop, so why not take that chance? He did do a terrible job of explaining it though.

[Scooterdoo]

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Huck Seed was trying a stop and go with 77. He was probably getting some pot odds and thought the raiser was likely to have two overcards. The raiser could have a smaller pair, although a larger pair was more likely. You have to look at the pot odds to see if this was a reasonable play.

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I agree that he was going for a stop and go. He was probably thinking that overcards would call his all-in, so he was better off waiting for the flop and then hoping that his opponent wouldn't call him. Perhaps he could get away from his hand with a really scaring flop with a K or A, but anything else he pushes -- which I believe he did.

I will say that many times when I have been short-stacked in big tournaments and pushed with less than premium hands, I wished after-the-fact that I would have done the stop and go, because based on the results of the hand (sorry Barry, don't want to be results oriented) I would have won the hand. For example, at last years Legends tournament (I think it was a 1k event) I was down to 12th place and was on the button and get dealt JJ. I pushed with about 22k and get called by Alan Cunningham who had me covered by only a bit. He had A9. He hit an A on the turn and I'm out. If I make a moderate raise and we both see the flop I'm taking down the pot with a push on the flop. Of course I'm also giving him the chance of outdrawing me with rags if I don't push. There isn't one good answer for these situations.

[riffraff]

This is on right now (10 minutes into it) on Fox Sports West (Fox Sports [your area here]) for those who missed it the first time.

[cero_z]

Hi Skip,

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So either you are a better headsup player than Chan and Liebert. Or you are stupid enough to not understand their play and think you are better.

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If the sequence I described is representative of their play in high-blind, shallow-stack heads up play, then I am better than them under these conditions.

I'm guessing you didn't watch the program, or you wouldn't be defending the play. And to the guy who suggested that given Kathy's timid play of KJ, Chan was right to play 54s as he did, you are wrong. That is the ultimate results-oriented critique. When you are in a game under these conditions, your decision is based on the ways that your opponent might play ALL of her possible holdings, not a couple of "tweeners". He had no way of knowing that she wouldn't come over the top like she had the previous time he'd made a little raise (also with a very weak hand).

[touchfaith]

Did he really expect to win wearing that shirt? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Boris]

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and to the guy who suggested that given Kathy's timid play of KJ, Chan was right to play 54s as he did, you are wrong.

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That guy was me and I'm not wrong. The only way I'm wrong is if there are some hands that Kathy would fold to an all in bet, but would call a modest raise. Given Chan's stack I doubt there are any hands that fall into this category.

[Rushmore]

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This wasn't even a close decision, four-handed, even with Dewey being short. If I make a normal raise of 120 and leave myself 230, what am I supposed to do when I will be getting more than 2 to 1 on my call if Kathy moves in. I know your answer: call when you see her hole cards and she has Ace-Queen or a pair of Tens, but fold when she has big pairs or Ace-King. In other words, you are playing results.

There were a few all-ins with King-Nine offsuit on this show, the critical one being Kathy's all-in where she won a race against my pair of Sixes. If I would have woken up with a big pair or if she would have lost the race, she would have been criticized.

I keep hoping the people on these forums will be able to analyze poker, independent of the results. (Otherwise, they won't be able to digest my book.)


Barry

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Please forgive me if I forget all of the particulars, but my impression at the time was that with Tomko about to be taking an allin flop in the next hand or two, that actually folding might be in play, that sacrificing your immediate EV for the overall event EV of the difference in points between 4th and 3rd might make sense. Obviously, there's a lot to consider here. I'm sure that your relative chip positions to Leibert and Chan at the time would have to factor in as well.

But again, I haven't got all the particulars at hand.

Guess I'll go back and watch it again. Gee whillikers.

[uuDevil]

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I keep hoping the people on these forums will be able to analyze poker, independent of the results. (Otherwise, they won't be able to digest my book.)

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Perhaps another book is called for?

[PukaPlaya]

I have never liked her much and this kind of nailed the coffin shut.

She made some really strange plays as well.

Folding AQ against Barry's K9 during the hand she got the penalty on was bizarre. I can't figure that one out...