AA hand - Intended for newbies

I would like to see VPIP numbers for BB, but a loose passive in a big multiway pot like this is likely calling from the blinds like 100% of the time. He could have any hand with a 4.

I'm a real new newbie so I'll try this. The BB's preflop cold call and check raise on the flop concern me. He could have AK or AQ, a pocket pair or what would really hurt; A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Based on the betting I’d put the LAG player on either AK or a pocket pair, I’d put the BB on either a Pocket Pair or A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

So how do I get more information? If I raise the turn bet and just get calls, then I’d say they have nothing more than pocket pairs. It seems unlikely that they’d just call. Reraise and cap are more likely. This is a hand I’m not getting away from so I have nothing to lose by raising. Therefore I raise on the turn. If I get reraised, I just call on the river.

The pot is already large, So I’d just call to the end and If I got beat, I have a good story.

Now what would really be interesting is if the BB had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], and mp2 hand pocket 9’s , and a 9 comes on the river.

[ClaytonN]

easy call. pump the pot.

you want one of those three callers to make a good 2nd best hand. if someone has a 4 you're losing money anyways. extract the most, and do that by keeping the pot large & multiway.

How loose is loose? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The ONLY one who _seems_ to be considering slow playing the hand to keep the other players in and build the pot is our hero with, at the very worst, the second nuts. The BB check-raised on the flop. If you had flopped quads, (or the second nuts *wink*) would you check-raise on the flop? Or would you check-call on the flop and let an aggressive player (you in this case, since you have already bet out on the flop) take the lead on the turn, and then, when the rest of the table has called, THEN check-raise? Agreed, you can't just NEVER bet a hand like this on the flop (as you did, you had to put in at least one bet) but their re-raises stink of lesser pocket pairs and/or failed attempts at deception. IF the BB had flopped quads, he wouldn't have to raise to push you out of the pot - if he had any brains (read: experience - and, granted, he may be clueless and NOT know how to slow play, so, he played lousy cards in terrible position, got super lucky with THE nut flop, and now he is too dumb to know how to slow play it, and because the better player has the second nuts, he is going to get paid off - but how often is that going to be a losing play for you, and a winning play for him?) IF he had experience/brains/knowledge, he would at least consider slowplaying it and letting YOU lead out with the bet on the turn when the bets double. MP2 is trying to push people out of the pot because he has a PP (or nothing) and has deluded himself into thinking he can bluff the whole table into folding so he can win it right there. The BB also has a small PP, most likely, or maybe even A, or K, or Q high. Yes, he could have anything ranging from 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], including a 4 with a Q, or J, 7, 6, 5, and for that matter, a good portion of those could be unsuited (not that it matters at this point) but, do I really need to go on? Nobody knows you have aces, because, after all, the chances are so slim, they probably saw their own boat and completely discounted your PF raise, putting you on unpaired overcards (because if they did put you on a pocket pair, they wouldn't have that pretty flopped boat on the table and that big juicy pot to rake in and call their own - they would have to fold if they stopped to think about what you had!)

If he is loose (again, how loose is loose, especially with the number of callers you had preflop - he could have almost anything, and monsters under the bed aren't going to scare me off)

If they want to cap the betting, I will let them, or if they slow down, I will make them call my (re-)raise(s).

You have as much chance of getting another ace on the river as anyone else has of making trips and beating you, but are you really going to worry about that even slimmer chance? I mean, we already have you sitting with AA, and a flop with trip 4s - the odds of at least two other people having pockets is getting close to astronomical - though not completely unlikely, but for them to hit yet a THIRD card to again beat your pocket - the odds are SO much in your favor (but then, I am a newbie - what do I know?)

Let them cap the betting, and if they need help doing so (which they didn't seem to need!), give them a friendly push in the right direction.

Aces in the hole can be big losers or big winners. If someone is lucky enough to have scored that flop with a 4 in his hand, he is going to get some of my money. But if Mr. BB called your PF raise with Q4o, it is time to make a note beside his name. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Maybe he is drunk. Maybe his wife is yelling at him to take out the garbage, and/or to stop playing that stupid game again - and he has 22 in the hole and isn't bright enough to consider the possibility that your PF raise meant you had a bigger PP.

Maybe... It depends, doesn't it? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Do we know if this guy pays attention to the other players at the table? Is he playing the players, or just playing his own cards without even thinking about what anyone else has? I know you said he is relatively new but have we seen him involved in any pots in which he shouldn't have been involved (beyond his loose PF behaviour, does he carry on with it on the flop and beyond?)

And, how passive is passive? Has this guy EVER made a bet out of turn? Does he only EVER call/call/fold (or SD)... Is he THE calling station you WANT sitting at your immediate left?

If he has NEVER bet before, I MIGHT give him credit for a four, but, it depends how new he is, and how far away he is from the tip of your sniper rifle barrel... (er, was that out loud?)

MAYBE he has flopped the nuts and doesn't know how to slowplay on the flop BECAUSE he is so passive and doesn't have any gears other than on and off... If that is the case, you will pay him off (well, I will, unless I know him well enough to KNOW that he is incapable of anything other than on/off, because then you KNOW he has flopped quads since he is ON)

Now I wait for the responses telling me I am overthinking this [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] , or I am dead on [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The only way I believe I could be completely off here is if the entire table is so loose and clueless that everyone is betting with nothing and, if that is the case, even if you lose this hand, you will eventually walk away from the table with ALL of their racks. ORRRRRRRRRR if the BB is a genius and he KNOWS you have aces and KNOWS you can't put your hand down...

Yeah, okay. Next, please.

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I'm a real new newbie so I'll try this. The BB's preflop cold call and check raise on the flop concern me. He could have AK or AQ, a pocket pair or what would really hurt; A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

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Perhaps you were joking but why would him holding AK or AQ concern you? He couldn't tie you if an ace hit the turn or river, and the only way he could beat you would be if he scored runner runner on his second overcard, and that same thing could happen with ANY two cards 5 and up, other than your aces and the 4s already tripped on the flop. Unless I am missing something (er - don't see how that is possible, but that is why we are here, to be given wisdom from the all knowing poker gurus who frequent these dank and musty halls)

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Based on the betting I’d put the LAG player on either AK or a pocket pair, I’d put the BB on either a Pocket Pair or A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

So how do I get more information? If I raise the turn bet and just get calls, then I’d say they have nothing more than pocket pairs. It seems unlikely that they’d just call. Reraise and cap are more likely. This is a hand I’m not getting away from so I have nothing to lose by raising. Therefore I raise on the turn. If I get reraised, I just call on the river.

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I am not an expert, but from what I have read, and for your edification, "raising for information" is highly overrated, should be used VERY sparingly, and only in very certain circumstances. Theory of Poker talks about it (although I haven't gotten to that point yet) and I read somewhere else (possibly on this forum) that raising for information doesn't often give you the information you seek. I am sure I will miss something here, and for that matter, I may be misinterpreting something, but from what I gather, if your opponent calls, you get virtually no useful information, other than the fact that he is willing to call because he believes he has a good hand, but since he doesn't know you have aces, it tells you next to nothing - he could be slowplaying flopped quads, he may have A2 and is hoping to catch an ace on the next card, or he may just be an idiot - you probably won't know until the hand is over, and maybe not even then if you show down your aces and everyone else mucks. If he re-raises you, all you have done is confirm your worst fear - or have you? - he doesn't KNOW you have pocket aces, and for that matter, probably doesn't even suspect it - so that doesn't give you any more information, other than to tell you that _he believes_ he has a better hand than yours. The only other way you gain _here_ ("raising for information") is if he folds - but that isn't really a gain if he has a worse hand and you WANTED him to call - his mistake would be to stay in the pot against you IF he has a worse hand, and other players' mistakes is how you make money, so you _want_ him to stay in the pot if he has the worse hand - you don't want him to fold - so raising to get him to fold, well, if you have the best hand, that is a bad thing (according to the fundamental theorem of poker - someone correct me if I am wrong? I have only read the first hundred pages and have only read it once, although I have been taking my time doing my best to absorb it) The ONLY time (I think) you really want your opponent to fold to your raise is when he is folding the best hand, or what might BECOME the best hand if he were to stay in for the next card(s). If you make him fold the second best hand, you won't get any more bets out of him, and that will cost you profit. (right?)

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The pot is already large, So I’d just call to the end and If I got beat, I have a good story.


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Again, not the expert here, but I believe the better players may say that is weak tight play and you will lose money in the long run that way. Again, I may be wrong - happens from time to time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] but if you believe you have the best hand, you should be doing what you can to get AS MUCH money into the pot as possible, but if you believe you are beaten, you should fold. What you suggest is in between, and that will not earn you money in the long run - from what I understand, it will actually cost you money in the long run. Yes, there are times to be cautious, but here is where the odds come into play. The odds of anyone having a better hand than you right now are VERY slim, and playing those edges are how you make your money. I believe (hope) I am on the right track here, and if not, I hope someone corrects me soon (or confirms what I am saying because I am fairly new to this and do NOT want to be giving bad advice, but I am trying to help you see poker in a different light, and trying to find out if I have correctly interpreted the information I have absorbed - they say it is proof of understanding when you can put ideas like this into your own words, so forgive me if I sound preachy - I don't mean it to sound that way - I am just trying to enlighten, and hopefully get confirmation or denial of said enlightenment (or lack thereof!)

Believe me, it gets MUCH deeper than this - I haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg - and that is why they say it takes a lifetime to master it...

[POKhER]

and if anyone has a 4... BB is most likly to have it. Of course fish play K4s, Q4s... but i still give BB most credit for it.

Anyhow turn im probably calling and expecting MP to raise*he did 3bet the flop*.

I HIGHLY DOUBT ANYONE WILL FOLD SPECIALLY WITH PP so worrying about being outdraw to high FH is not wise.

May the turn action commence...

[Bankuri]

Posting blind.

Ok, well first I'm only beat by a 4. I'm not giving bb credit for a 4 yet. Yet, a c/r from an unknown I've got to give him credit for a pocket pair or good overcards. I have two overcalls behind me though, so I need to at least think about one of those hands holding the case 4. This is not quite a WA/WB situation as I don't think the final 4 is in play very often, but it's something to keep in mind for later streets. Time to make the most money I can.

So, I would call the flop and go for overcalls from the limpers. This is an even better play because the LAG might just three-bet it at which point I'd cap. I would expect BB to bet out the turn and at this point I'm uncertain how to milk this pot. My hunch is to go for overcalls. If the turn gets raised, it's time to see a showdown as cheaply as possible.

I appreciate the comments. I really am newbie, started to take poker seriously about 2 months ago. Like most people here have read a book or two. I used this post as an exercise to apply what I know. (or what I think I know). I may be off base but it’s how I understand poker at this point. I really do appreciate the comments and criticism. I’m beginning to become comfortable with my preflop play but my post flop play needs work. I hope to learn more as a part of this forum.

As for the problem at hand. I wouldn’t be concerned if he had AK or AQ. I could see someone cold calling with either of those hands. He could also cold call with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or a PP

If I look only at the math, is unlikely that either player would have a 4, so I’d raise till the cows come home. Maybe that’s the answer and I hope to get some feedback.

But putting all the pieces together, its possible ( to me anyway, but maybe I’m giving him more credit than he deserves.) the BB could have A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] So how do I proceed from here? You may be right raise raise raise, if he has it oh well stuff happens. If he doesn’t you take down a big one.

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All of the BB betting here *may* scream out he has the 4, but so what? If you can't cap every street with this hand, then we shouldn't be playing poker, right?


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I think against a loose passive, this is really really bad. Even against a semi-maniac I am slowing down at some point. There are just a lot of hands that include a 4 that they could have. In particular for this case, a loose passive playing from the blinds has basically any two and you're going to have to give him credit for a 4 at some point or you are spewing chips IMO.

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There are a lot of hands that include a 4, but we're talking about the case 4. I don't think we are seeing that >50% even with the action here. I wouldn't be convinced until BB or MP3 is still there at the river 3-betting, and even then, I'd probably figure them holding a medium pair than a 4.

I agree we shoudn't go into a shell just b/c the loose passive starts betting. And it would really depends on reads of how passive and/or bad this guy is, b/c a lot of times they'll go "look I have a full house" and thats what they're betting. If this were HU though I would cap the flop, raise the turn, and if 3-bet on the turn just call down. B/C given the action at that point I think he has a 4 >50% of the time.