Straddle Discussion

[Kevin J]

Right. I do understand their POV. They don't want to create an uncomfortable atmosphere where players might feel pressured to straddle when they don't want to.

And rocks usually create problems in rooms anyway that won't recognize them. It's been my experience there will always be some jerk who says nothing at first, wins a big pot due the rock, and then takes it out of the game.

[DeezNutz3]

[ QUOTE ]
Hehe rocks are no longer allowed at Canterbury Card Club in MN. Nor is using different colored chips as "markers" for a rock. Something about the MN Gaming Commission saying no to it and it "making certain people who don't want to straddle feel uncomfortable." Yes, otherwise, a rock is a fine solution.

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I played in this game last week and we played with a rock the majority of the time...it was not rubberbanded but we used 2 $25 green chips as the identifier. The dealers for sure and the floor almost definately knew this was going on and didn't do anything nor say anything. So, I don't think they follow that rule too much. I played with both you and BK but I don't think it was a rock game then. I think I know the player you are referring to and I think I side with Schneids and I would straddle.

[gonores]

OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, lets say the game has 5 Schneiders, 3 BKs, and 1 Jimmy.

Since Schneider is straddling to keep Jimmy happy, he'll have to do all of the inherent -EV things that go along with it, namely calling all bets preflop and making a few loose calls/raises in the name of generating big pots. I think it's fair to assume that straddling costs $40-$50 per orbit for Schneider to straddle. Fortunately, he makes $20 off the 4 other Schneider straddles ($45/9 players * 4 straddles), and lets say $10 off of Jimmy's straddle, since he is more apt to do -EV activity while straddling. So lets say each Schneider is losing $15 off this proposition every orbit.

At 36 hands per hour, each Schneider is giving up 1BB of EV to keep Jimmy happy.

OK, now lets say Jimmy loses 16BBs* per hour (~$1k) to the table. That's 2BB per hour for all the BKs and Schneiders at the table, all things being equal, whereas the BKs and Schneiders would be playing a 0 EV game without Jimmy (obviously overlooking the rake to simplify things).

* In my PT DB, I have 5 players with >100 hands who lose more than 50BBs per 100 hands (and they are all a) pretty close to -50BB/100 and b) under 200 total hands, skewing the sample toward the extremities). That is the rate at which Jimmy must lose at to hit 16BB/hr live. If anything, the estimate of 16BB/100 is a little extreme.

Following the math, if Schneider sacrifices 1BB of EV per orbit, he needs to ensure that table-straddle tactics double the amount of Jimmy time in the game to make it a +EV decision.

I find it hard to believe Jimmy stays twice as long just as long as people straddle. Meanwhile, Schneider could just as easily use his boyish charm to engage Jimmy in interesting conversation to keep him there. Or engage in prop bets with him. Or something. Straddling is fun, but I don't think you can call that a +EV long term decision.

Oh yeah, and each BK makes almost 4 times as much as each Schneider in this scenario.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[gonores]

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OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

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You're damn right. I'd have to yell and needle enough to make him give up the $150/hr or so that he'd be giving up to come join me and my straddling crew. It's a good thing I'm Doug [censored] Meyer and I know how to make BK straddle if I need to make him straddle.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OMG, if you were there you would be the first to scream NIT!!!! at the top of your lungs in the direction of all the "BKs"

[/ QUOTE ]

You're damn right. I'd have to yell and needle enough to make him give up the $150/hr or so that he'd be giving up to come join me and my straddling crew. It's a good thing I'm Doug [censored] Meyer and I know how to make BK straddle if I need to make him straddle.

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heh, I just wanted to make sure no one got the wrong impresssion based on your first post [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[mike l.]

what we used to do back when the 20 game here was really good and went all night all the time was do "mandatory live straddle with a rebate". so everyone straddled every hand and got $20 back from whoever won the pot. it was so awesome.

[sfer]

WTF does EV have to do with straddling?

[TaintedRogue]

When you all give Jimmy good action, does he give you good sporting bet tips?