34 off suite or 95 suited

[Clarkmeister]

Andy,

My answer was really just a smartass remark with little redeeming value. The point I was trying to make was..."who cares because you can only play what you are dealt" Apparently the initial poster would play both hands, inc case its irrelevant which he would *rather* have.

Anyways, it was just a little sarcastic humor gone awry.

For a serious answer to your question....folding 34 is better than folding 95s. It seems painfully obvious to me that 95s is a vastly superior hand than 34o, and I'm suprised its even being debated.

According to everyone's favorite data (sarcasm) at the pokerrom website, calling with both 34o and 95s is +EV in a 2/3SB scenario. in a 1/2SB scenario, only the 95s is +EV. The overall number for 95s is -.20BBs in this spot and for 34o its -.26BBs.

[andyfox]

"painfully obvious"

I love that expression. I once had a student of mine claim he couldn't concentrate because he was "soaking tired."

I have and had no doubt 9-5 plays better here than 4-3. I do have doubts that A) the vast majority of poker players make money playing 9-5 from the sb; and B) the vast majority of poker players would not be better off folding all but premium hands from the small blind (usually after looking at only one card).

[Clarkmeister]

At the risk of opening up the "how valid is the pokerroom data" can of worms, here's a quick thought on your following quote:

"majority of poker players would not be better off folding all but premium hands from the small blind"

This is the beauty, in my mind, of the pokerrom data. It includes winners, losers and everything in between in a raked environment. It is the perfect example of how an "average" player does.

So since an average SB is -.25 BBs, and the average EV of 95s in Pokerroom cash games is -.20BBs, this tells me that even the brain dead can play the hand in the SB for positive expectation. Make the SB -.33 BBs (as we are discussing) and its a significant money winner at +.13BBs better than folding (on average, with the usual disclaimers).

Do I score any points?

PS, I folded pocket 22 yesterday 3 off the button first in and thought how proud you would be. I did look at both cards though. I can't help it.

[astroglide]

is the ev from cash games only?

where is the actual info on the page?

[Clarkmeister]

Yes, its from cash games only. The data may have problems that prevent one from drawing too many conclusions, but mixing cash games and play games isn't one of them.

You can also break it down into quite an amazing bit of detail by fiddling around in the site which lets you look at the data from several different angles.

https://www.pokerroom.com/evstats/to...php?players=10

[andyfox]

"Do I score any points?"

-Always. Is the average EV of 95s that you cite the average EV of 95s in the sb?

"I folded pocket 22 yesterday 3 off the button first in and thought how proud you would be. I did look at both cards though. I can't help it."

-I wonder if my biggest mistake was posting A) that I never look at the second card when my first card is a deuce; or B) that I never limp; or c) that I have a rather odd physical quirk that has, ahem, backfired on me due to a medication I am taking.

As to not being able to help looking at both cards, it gets easier with practice. And with poor vision.

[Clarkmeister]

"Is the average EV of 95s that you cite the average EV of 95s in the sb?"

But of course.

(Think Grey Poupon commercial)

[andyfox]

Stupid question.

I just checked out the stats through the link you posted. It shows that the only hands that lose more than .33BB from the sb are 4-2s and T-6.

[Clarkmeister]

Hence the proponents of playing any two for that extra chip. The bets you collect are so much bigger than the bet you invest.

Now, note that you can break down the results by limit. 95s's EV deteriorates as the limit increases (It is -.41 in 5-10 games). This makes sense. Like I said before, there are a million caveat's with this website (such as sample size when you break it out by limit), but it is instructive nonetheless.

I think the most interesting thing about the data is just how monstrously position sensitive suited connectors are, while the EV's of big offsuit cards are relatively stable regardless of position.

[andyfox]

"Hence the proponents of playing any two for that extra chip"

I note that our hosts recommended precisely this 15 yeaers ago without the benefit of computer studies.

BTW, 8:34 PM, shouldn't you be playing poker right now?