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#1
08-13-2005, 12:24 AM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
In fact, not many people play well enough to survive as full time pros, but LOTS of people think they can do it. [/ QUOTE ] Alan, doesn't the same hold true for anyone starting any home based business? Wouldn't you agree that there are some people, who if they went into it with the right mindset and education, have a chance to actually increase their lifestyle? Wouldn't you agree that someone who looked at playing poker as a business opportunity would have a higher chance of sucess than your average joe playing poker for entertainment/social value? 
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#2
08-13-2005, 04:07 AM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
You wrote: "Wouldn't you agree that there are some people, who if they went into it with the right mindset and education, have a chance to actually increase their lifestyle?"
Of course, I agree. Some of my friends live very pleasant lifestyles from poker. The critical question generally is HOW MANY will improve their lifestyle? One poster stated that 99% of the people with certain qualifications and experience could succeed, which is an absurd statement. The critical personal question is what are YOUR chances? As you correctly pointed out, most people who start businesses expect to succeed, but many of them fail. The percentage varies between types of businesses, but in some businesses the failure rate is very high. You also wrote: "Wouldn't you agree that someone who looked at playing poker as a business opportunity would have a higher chance of sucess than your average joe playing poker for entertainment/social value?" Of course, I agree. The average Joe who plays for entertainment has no chance at all to make it as a pro. To succeed you MUST treat it as a business. In fact, one reason some reasonably successful pros stop playing full time is that they don't want to treat poker as a business. It isn't fun. Regards, Al
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#3
08-13-2005, 06:03 AM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] In fact, not many people play well enough to survive as full time pros, but LOTS of people think they can do it. [/ QUOTE ] Alan, doesn't the same hold true for anyone starting any home based business? Wouldn't you agree that there are some people, who if they went into it with the right mindset and education, have a chance to actually increase their lifestyle? Wouldn't you agree that someone who looked at playing poker as a business opportunity would have a higher chance of sucess than your average joe playing poker for entertainment/social value? [/ QUOTE ] You can only go pro if you treat it like a business. It has the great advantages over other new businesses in that you can prove the concept before you launch, startup capital is generated by proving the concept, no stock, no staff and no demanding customers. Downside is your not building up a business that can be expanded or sold. There's not much excuse to fail if you've proved the concept and planned properly. No doubt some will, I wonder which is more absurd 99% success rate or <5% success rate. chez
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#4
08-26-2005, 01:51 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who is seriously considering turning pro should look at a DVD, "Poker Bustouts." I believe it was a show on HBO. It gives a dramatic picture of the other side of being a pro. It is not a pretty picture. Regards, Al [/ QUOTE ] Hello hustlers, grinders, and railbirds, I'd like to thank Dr. Al for mentioning the documentary "Poker Bustouts" in this forum, as it is relevant to the subject at hand. The film features 17 poker pros with over 400 combined years of tournament and cash game experience. Most of them solely gamble for a living. As the reality of the life is unveiled, the unique communal aspects of the poker world are perpetually in motion: borrowing, lending, hustling, and railbirding. A colorful picture is painted, but the subject matter is somewhat disturbing. There exists a cyclical poker hierarchy, from the successful to the survivors. So, be good to the people on the way up because you'll be seeing them on the way back down. The words "poker" and "career" should hardly ever be used in conjunction. We have not explored the electronic form of poker and don't know much about it, but it seems there are many people making a living through internet poker alone. I see a bunch of replies like, "That does not apply to internet poker." If I may, I'd like to ask a few questions. A professional live action player with good "poker room credit" can go broke but always stay in action. How do internet players stay in action when they bust? Most players have severe burnout game-wise and gamble-wise. Do internet players burn out faster because they play so many hands/games? Also, do they have other gambling "hobbies"? A player can always get a comp for a meal. Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player? Poker is like the French Foreign Legion. Nobody cares about your past and you have no future. A guy who played poker for the past ten years, wether a bustout or a success, is not appealing to a potential employer and often has little or no conventional occupational skills. Would this apply to someone who plays on the internet? It seems to me that internet players are not immune to the potential pitfalls that can afflict live players. We did not even get into cheating or resisting the urge to play higher. Dr. Al's article is a fine example of the type of advice that the bustouts in "Poker Bustouts" needed twenty years ago. Enjoy the trailer at www.pokerbustouts.com -------- "There's two kinds of birds that don't fly: jailbirds and railbirds. I've been them both." -Mike "The Bum" Tullis
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#5
08-26-2005, 03:47 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
as it is relevant to the subject at hand. The film features 17 poker pros with over 400 combined years of tournament and cash game experience. Most of them solely gamble for a living. [/ QUOTE ] The successful Limit poker pro wannabe is not a "gambler", he/she is a "grinder"; treating poker as a business, whether full or part time. [ QUOTE ] We have not explored the electronic form of poker and don't know much about it, but it seems there are many people making a living through internet poker alone. [/ QUOTE ] "Many" people is a relative term. In terms of percentages roughly 7-8% of online players are winners, many of those for only a small amount. Its reasonable to assume that a good portion of those players that would be considered fairly active, are reading/posting on these forums. [ QUOTE ] Most players have severe burnout game-wise and gamble-wise. Do internet players burn out faster because they play so many hands/games? [/ QUOTE ] Internet poker players under the age of 40, grew up playing video games. Im sure some would tell you that the action is slower playing 4 tables online than they are used to in most of the video games they played. [ QUOTE ] A player can always get a comp for a meal. Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player? [/ QUOTE ] There is no reason to believe that these marketing tools will go away in the forseeable future.
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#6
08-31-2005, 03:19 AM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
Playing poker may never really have been meant to be a life-long profession. There's plenty of ways to start with nothing and end up with something. In poker, you're a favorite to end end up with nothing- even if you start with something.
[ QUOTE ] The successful Limit poker pro wannabe is not a "gambler", he/she is a "grinder"; treating poker as a business, whether full or part time. [/ QUOTE ] After 20 years of sitting at a poker table listening to baseball, basketball, football, hockey, tennis, boxing, golf, etc. picks (locks), the limit hold'em grinder becomes a gambler. Poker players have the uncanny ability to convince each other and themselves of the "right" move. [ QUOTE ] "Many" people is a relative term. In terms of percentages roughly 7-8% of online players are winners, many of those for only a small amount. Its reasonable to assume that a good portion of those players that would be considered fairly active, are reading/posting on these forums. [/ QUOTE ] So, would it be fair to say that 5% beat work (make as much or more than they would in the workforce)? That sales job looks a lot better now, and your lotto habit now seems justifiable. [ QUOTE ] Internet poker players under the age of 40, grew up playing video games. Im sure some would tell you that the action is slower playing 4 tables online than they are used to in most of the video games they played. [/ QUOTE ] Kids play video games for a month and never look at them again. How long can these guys "beat" this game before they move on to something bigger, something newer, something fresher? There is no evidence of sustainability of success on the internet. I understand that we have a limited window to view, but there is also little evidence that someone can retire on middle limit live games at casinos over the past 40 years. [ QUOTE ] There is no reason to believe that these marketing tools will go away in the forseeable future. [/ QUOTE ] When this type of market situation exists- look at the energy, steel, railroad, automobile, or pro sports industries- caveat emptor. In such a period of dynamic demand, no common man is safe from greed, collusion, and brigandage.
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#7
08-31-2005, 03:50 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
Playing poker may never really have been meant to be a life-long profession. [/ QUOTE ] A top online poker pro will play more hands in 1 year than a B&M pro will play in his entire lifetime! [ QUOTE ] There's plenty of ways to start with nothing and end up with something. In poker, you're a favorite to end end up with nothing- even if you start with something. [/ QUOTE ] The poker world has changed, radically due to online play and everything that comes along with that. Success in poker by the determined, is now a reasonable alternative to starting other home based businesses. [ QUOTE ] After 20 years of sitting at a poker table listening to baseball, basketball, football, hockey, tennis, boxing, golf, etc. picks (locks), the limit hold'em grinder becomes a gambler. [/ QUOTE ] The successful online poker pro is not sitting at a table listening to anything other than whatever music they happen to be playing in the background. The psychological aspect of becoming a "gambler" is obviously something that any online player will have to deal with, but the successful players will maintain a "grinder", rather than "gambler" attitude. [ QUOTE ] So, would it be fair to say that 5% beat work (make as much or more than they would in the workforce)? [/ QUOTE ] Online poker play hasn't been around long enough to determine reliably the percentage of online pros that can "beat work". However, like any other decision to start a home based business, rather than work in the corporate world, earnings is not the only issue. Most people who are successfully working their own business from home will tell you that money is not the only relevant factor. [ QUOTE ] and your lotto habit now seems justifiable. [/ QUOTE ] There goes that "gambler" mentality again! Success in online poker is much more likely than hitting the lottery! [ QUOTE ] Kids play video games for a month and never look at them again. [/ QUOTE ] This is wrong on many counts! There are many dedicated gamers who have been playing video games for decades! Game developers release games not only for "kids", but also for the video game generation now in their 30-40s. [ QUOTE ] there is also little evidence that someone can retire on middle limit live games at casinos over the past 40 years [/ QUOTE ] This goes back to my first point, you can play more hands in 1 year online, than you could in 40 years of B&M play. [ QUOTE ] In such a period of dynamic demand, no common man is safe from greed, collusion, and brigandage. [/ QUOTE ] We are not talking about the "common man"... we are talking about a dedicated player treating poker as a business, and taking all necessary steps.... to research, practice, evaluate... and ultimately improve their game.
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#8
08-26-2005, 06:35 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
[ QUOTE ]
Will bonuses, rakeback, and "host" jobs always be available to the electronic player? [/ QUOTE ] Actually this is a bright spot in the coming storm. Internet poker rooms are at least as vulnerable to any bust scenario as the pros. There are so many sites and more keep entering the market. Increased competition for fewer players means the rake will have to drop and that will make it easier to beat the games. Note that by "rake" I mean the actual cost to play. Bonuses and rakeback are just tricky ways of discounting. The recent rapid spread/increase of rakeback in the Party skins and many smaller sites is the first stage of the coming price war.
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#9
08-11-2005, 04:29 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
why not!
you just got one life and if you were wrong you only know when the show is over.
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#10
08-12-2005, 11:34 PM
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Re: Should You Quit Your Day Job? — Part I
When I was 19, I worked as a dealer in charity casinos in Toronto. This was way before the poker boom. Our casinos would open at 12pm and close at 4 in the morning. I remembered the same players coming day in and day out to play poker.
At that time it just never occured to me that you could actually make a living playing poker. I remembered one conversation I had with a player who revealed to me he was a pro. He was there everyday, many days there for all 16 hours that we were opened. I always wondered what he did for a living. He told me he was a poker player and that was his profession. This kinda shocked at the time. I wasn't intrigued however. He told me it was a really hard life and it wasn't easy. I believed him but never really went in depth with him. This was my first encounter with anyone who did this for a living. I had absolutely no interest whatsoever. At that time it sure seemed to me like a pathetic existence. Maybe I was biased since I worked at the casino and saw my share of shady characters. Flash forward 11 years and I can't believe I'm going to make the jump. Times have changed and I have changed. Nowadays you don't have to make the commute and play a LOT more hands when you play online. With so many bonuses and rakebacks available, it's very possible for a decent but not great player to make a living off poker. It is a lot easier now than it's ever been. Making money on the internet is just much more viable than just playing at B&Ms. I never thought in my wildest dreams that holdem poker would explode into the mainstream as it has today. This really is the golden age of poker right now.
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