Deep stack theory

[Tommy Angelo]

"as a matter of general theory, how should the increased depth affect my overall strategy?"

Given your lack of experience at those depths, I would suggest this:

Go slower than they do, especially before the flop. With non-pair hands preflop, raise lesser amounts and less often than seems right.

Slow down after the flop, usually to a stop. Imagine hitting your best card on the turn. Will you want to put in a bunch of chips? If no, then don't put chips in on the flop either.

Proceed with extreme caution when somebody else overbets or overcommits and you have a really good hand. He can't have that straight, can he? Could he have called my preflop raise with 10-7 offsuit? Answer: if the pot is X, and the opponent commits 30X, then yes, he can have it, and he does. Or if he doesn't, well fine. Take the X.

Don't go stupid broke. Take a breath right at the spot when you are used to just firing. Keep your dick in your pants, keep the pots small, and don't overcommit. I think these are the most profitable things to focus on at virgin deepstack. You'll get laid soon enough. No need to rush it. Good luck.


Tommy

[SA125]

How do you get experience if you don't play? Moving up against basically the same players and looking for some insight from others who've been there is about the best you can do when you feel you're ready.

Tommy's reply here is exactly what I'd be looking for. Nice. Good luck cj.

[Wayfare]

My point is that moving up to five times the stakes at the same time as radically changing the blind sizes may not be the most prudent way to go about "moving up."

I would venture to guess that a play that you easily made at 1-2 -- i.e. tossing out 25 BB or so on the turn bluff raise -- will become a whole hell of a lot harder when you have to start looking for blacks.

I know I cannot play optimally when the conditions are so different from the ones I am used to.

But what the hell do we know, we are just unhelpful MS/HS posters with huge egos.

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]

But what the hell do we know, we are just unhelpful MS/HS posters with huge egos.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that you've admitted it, the next step is correcting it. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[SA125]

I'm not sure what part of my response translated into labling those who disagreed with the move up to be unhelpful with huge egos, but here's the main reason I didn't think it's too big a jump.

cj - "I know almost all of the players and play with them routinely in the smaller game"

That's why it sounds like it's within reach. The other thing I said about Tommy's response was because focusing on the intangibles, like speed and pace, seems like a great suggestion there when you're confident about your play.

[ZeeJustin]

Don't forget that draws are much much better when you have position. Dont start playing 65s utg or anything in this game.

[ML4L]

Hey cj,

I have a ton to say, but I can't seem to get organized (it's been a while since my last post...). So, I'll just start spewing thoughts and hopefully they'll end up forming a coherent post.

1) Of all the posts, I think that Tommy's is the one that you should really focus on.

2) A number of posters have touched on the fact that one of the most uncomfortable positions that you can be in is to be out of position with your hand defined. If you allow this to happen, your opponents will own you. Let's say you raise up front, and they know you have a big pair. Your opponents can then take advantage in one of two ways. One, if they know that you WILL NOT back an overpair with your stack, they can call with any two cards on the button, call your bet on the flop, bet/raise the turn and represent something better than an overpair, and steal the pot every time. Alternatively, if you WILL back an overpair with your stack, then they have the implied odds to play a TON of hands against your raise, because they know they can get paid off.

3) How to prevent the situation in point 2? VARY YOUR PLAY!!! You must play in such a way that opponents will not be able to narrowly put you on a hand. This means limping up front with big pairs (not recommended) or raising up front with hands such as 66, Axs, and maybe something like 87s occasionally (recommended). It also means playing hands differently postflop, which brings us to...

4) Be ready to check in situations where you're used to betting and calling/folding in situations where you're used to raising. If you are not committed to your hand and are against a player who can push you off of it, don't give him the chance. You might end up giving more free cards, but that's OK. Marginal hands cost too much to bet just for the sake of "protecting them," so don't try.

5) Despite point 4, there is a difference between playing conservatively/wisely and playing passively/scared. If you think you have the best hand and somebody is just taking a shot at you, take a stand with an overpair, regardless of the conventional wisdom of not backing that type of hand. You don't have to have the nuts to play a big pot.

6) Be very cognizant of how much your opponents have in front of them so that you can devise ways to put them to tough decisions. Try to put in bets and raises where their only choice is to fold or make a reraise that will only be called if they are beat. In other words, force them to make a commitment decision while leaving yourself flexibility.

7) Many short-stack NL hands play themselves. The important thing in deep-stack is to think the hand through. If you aren't committed, try to get to showdown cheaply. If you are committed, try to find the best way to get all of the money in.

8) If you adjust properly, AA/KK/AK are NOT worthless out of position. The game doesn't change that dramatically. As posters have noted, position is extra-important with deep stacks because there is still much money to be bet on the turn and the river. But, big hands are still big hands, regardless of position.

I feel like I'm getting repetitive and less insightful, so I think I'll stop. Best of luck...

ML4L

PS I don't believe that Wayfare's initial reply to you was meant to be condescending or meant to degrade your ability. I likely would have said something along those lines as well. I'd rather risk insulting/patronizing a competent player such as yourself than risk not providing a disclaimer to someone who needed to hear it...

[Wayfare]

This is a great post for all of us, thanks Mike.

BTW, how is that Lexus working for you? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[BadVoodooX]

I have nowhere near the degree of expertise of a Tommy Angelo or Matt Flynn but I've been quite successful in my deepstack NL play online at 3/6 & 5/10 after moving up from 2/4 shorter stacked play so I'll offer up what I’ve learned from my recent experience.

Take some time and get used to this format for a few sessions and be tight/aggressive. This is a big step up so be patient with the learning curve. If you don’t have the bankroll to do this, then don’t because you will likely not break even at first, this is a considerable jump up in skill.

You have to be aggressive or the regulars will take pots away from you. Raise hard when you have your raising hands or good strong semibluffs with position. Make people wary that you will push hard with your good hands early in the hand to minimize their tricky play with marginal hands; letting people draw cheaply to their overcard/inside straight draws or hitting that oddball two pair is going to hurt you much more.

Work on improving your reading skills, you will need them more than in short stack NL where the math dictates the correct play. You will have to occassionally make a big laydown with hands like sets or straights that you would never dream of laying down with shorter stacks. Take your time and think the hand through, there is much more at stake. Did the play make sense for your opponent if the implied/reverse implied odds were right, especially if your play telegraphed a hand that would be hard to get away from? Pot odds are far less important here since people are aiming for your whole stack.

Predictable/tight play can get you in serious jeopardy in a big pot against loose/tricky players who will play those 10/7 and 3/5 hands. If you are playing tight which I strongly recommend initially, you are shooting for small/medium sized pots, especially with top pair & good kicker. If you have the nut straight or flush on the turn, push it all in, you don’t want to be borderline pot committed with your nut flush when the board pairs on the river.

Limp in from late position with drawing hands more than in short stack play, especially with Ax suited hands and suited connectors or suited 1 gapers but be more wary than you are used to on flush draws with those hands since that open-ended straight flush draw which is fabulous to go all in with on the flop in short stack is a deathtrap in deep stack since if you get called in deep stack you are likely against a made hand or the higher flush draw and a pair which has you slaughtered and there won’t be enough in the pot to make your draw +EV. Avoid straight and flush draws that aren’t to the nuts much, much more than at short stack.

I think the one thing from Ciaffone & Rueben that is the most important thing for a newer player at deep stack NL play it is this: Be a raiser, if you are calling it’s because you’ve trapped your opponent not vice versa.

Good luck and welcome to real poker.