80/160 hand against J.A. Sucker

[mike l.]

"I'd venture that most live players call here but most online players 3 bet at comparable stakes."

i completely agree.

"when I play live I always get mindfucked because everyone seems to be calling big aces in the blinds."

exactly. i almost said something about this distinction but wasnt sure if it was the case online. thanks.

[golferbrent]

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If you felt you were ahead on the flop... did you consider a 4 bet?

It seems to me that JA is very capable of going 3 bets on the flop with nothing, as well as with something. However, he is definitely less likely to go 5 bets with nothing.

If you put 4 bets in and lead the turn then you have the abiltiy to make JA define his hand properly. Especially, if you felt you had the best hand.

As the play turned out, I think I would let JA bluffvalue bet at the pot and c/r.

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It's not obvious we are ahead of JA until the turn. That said, I just want to echo the sentiments of the other posters that a 3 bet pf here is obvious as a standard play, but calling and cr-ing any flop from time to time is good too.
-James

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I agree completely... that a 3 bet preflop is a better play here. JA doesnt need much to open raise when he has already posted. His range is quite wide at this point and a 3 bet preflop is a great play against his possible range of hands.

My thought was that on the flop... since we have chosen to call preflop (which is a good play a small percentage of the time) a 4 bet on the flop will make JA define his hand. My sentiment was that JA can easily 3 bet here with any holding on the flop and as such a 4 bet is a strong play that needs to be considered b/c i don't feel he is likely to 5 bet with nothing his first hand at the table.

[J.A.Sucker]

Your suggestion of 4 betting the flop just sets him up for further heartache later. What do you do when you lead the turn and I pop it? I would have done this here. You don't have a pair, but folding is a sick issue because you made the pot gigantic.

[golferbrent]

The decision has to be made whether you want to make the pot big and do whatever it takes to take it down... or keep it small until you make a hand/or call down UI.

I don't necessarily think that a 4 bet is the absolutely correct play here... but it should be an option to consider. I was just asking if he considered all available options or if once he was 3 bet on flop... did he go into passive call down mode?

As far as your ability to raise the turn with nothing here... I would fully expect you to do that. You are in the mode of trying to do whatever it takes to take the pot down. All factors that need to be considered...

In addition, I think a lot of people have talked about the 3 bet preflop, which from an equity standpoint makes a lot of sense against your range. However, your capping range is pretty much the same range as you opened with. If you have a hand that you can open with... you have a hand you can cap with position. Which can also swell the pot preflop as well...

I thin the discussion here is really good on this hand... and all factors need to be consdiered on all streets to ensure that the hand is played properly and gives you the best chance to win.

[skp]

In general, I like the smoothcall preflop in this spot with a view to checkraising any flop other than those that you hit.

But I would change my flop plans here when it comes down 522.

When you checkraise that flop, Sucker should know you are prolly full of it. If you had a pp, you would 3 bet preflop. You prolly don't have a 5 or 2 particularly since you are stepping up to the 80 game from your usual 40 game. Your checkraise on the flop should look like Ax or a flush draw to sucker and he will play it accordingly.

Besides, when the flop comes JT3 and you checkraise, Sucker might fold a hand like 88 either then or on the turn. He ain't folding 88 (and probably not folding any two cards) when the flop is 522.

So, I would just call preflop and just checkcall the flop.

BTW, my new book "Checkcall your way to Millions" is just about ready for the printers. Pre-orders accepted...heh

Having played it the way you did, the river checkraise is the much better play for resaons given by Jmaes, Mike l, Barron et al. But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone). Online, I would have no qualms with pulling the river checkraise trigger.

[blumpkin22]

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But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

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If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

[Josh W]

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But for PR reasons, I never made that play when playing live (keep in mind that I used to play in a realtively small cardroom where everyone knows everyone).

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If you have qualms about checkraising, not only should you quit poker permanently, but you should seriously consider killing yourself.

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You clearly either:

1.) Lack serious reading comprehension

or

2.) Think that "the big picture" refers to a movie screen.

Josh

[skp]

No qualms about checkraising in general.

But river checkraises in spots such as this where you are clearly sending a signal that you have just outplayed your opponent was one that I consciously avoided in live play in our small cardroom.

Our games were great: loose, lots of friendly chat, hardly anyone cussing at you or the dealers for bad beats etc. There were also huge pots (frequently over a grand in our 10-20 game). The last thing I wanted to do was get under a guy's skin for a measly 1 extra big bet by checkraising the river in a spot like this. It was counterproductive in that particular environment.

Checkraising when the board was K7397 and I held A7 is a different story. No one gets pissed off at that.

[andyfox]

You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

[blumpkin22]

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You should seriously consider the ramifications of killing the game.

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Fair enough.