Israel's Campaign of Targeted Assassanations Apparently is Working

[Cyrus]

When you are right, you are right and in this case Gamblor is absolutely Right. I mean, let's face it:

Arafat is the one to blame for the killings, the misery, the humilation, the land confiscation, the hostage-taking and kidnappings, the beatings, the tortures, the cultural suppression, the uprooting from homes and towns, the forced migration, the despicable conditions, all those goodies that befell the Palestinians are the direct and sole responsibility of one man, Yaser Arafat.

The Israelis keep begging Yaser to change his ways but he is a bastard and he won't listen. It's just oh so hopeless. If only there was a bright lawyer from Canada to talk some sense into the guy. (Or sue him.)

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[Chris Alger]

"Israel was established pursuant to UN resolution."

Which it immediately proceeded to violate and go on to become the world champion UN resolution violator.

"'Palestine' was not established at the request of the people expected to form its population."

Because Palestine already existed as a recognized legal and geographical entity, identified as such by every map of the region, including those used by Zionists who wished to turn the country into "Israel."

"Israel is an established, sovereign state, and Palestine is not."

If this somehow implies that Palestinians don't have a right to their own country then it logically follows that neither to Jews, at least not in Palestine.

"Even Benny Morris has admitted he hadn't fully and properly researched his first book."

As for Karsch vs. Morris and Shlaim, try finding a tenured scholar (other than Alan Dershowitz) dumb enough to be suckered by Karsh's fabricated quotations.

Note again: you still can't get around to the facts of Israeli land confiscation policies, set forth clearly in the sources I cited, and haven't even addressed the process of how 7% of "Israel" in Jewish hands in 1948 got turned into 93% of "Israel" in Jewish hands now.

[hetron]

By your logic, the best thing to do for peace would be to have a more liberal party in place in the Knesset. Look at what the death totals were between 1994-1998, and compare them to when Sharon took over.

[Cyrus]

I understand that the facts provided by Alger, backed mostly by Jewish sources, are confusing your worldview. I sympathize. A fanatical worldview is soothing to the mind and numbing to the senses, a state of being that many find highly attractive. You are entitled to such a being so I beg Alger to spare you those troubling facts.

From now on, please Chris, only Fox.

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[hetron]

While I don't necessarily agree with everything Mr. Alger and Cyrus say in terms of the Middle East, you argue out of both ends of your mouth. On the one hand, Palestine is not a state, so it has no rights. On the other hand,Yasser Arafat , the Occupied Territories pseudo-leader, is solely to blame for the violence and despair in the region. Yet he has almost zippo economic power over the region. The West Bank and Gaza strip are some of the worst areas in the world from an economic standpoint.
Meanwhile, the territory is now occupied by a legitimately recognized state, Israel. As occupiers, the Israelis, by international law, have the obligation to see to it that the Palestinians are treated well, and supoort economic growth in the area. The Palestinians, since they aren't a recognized state, have no international law responsibility. So if you say the OT is a mess, you can't say the Palestinian pseudo-leader is responsible, because he isn't the leader of a state. Whether you like it or not, simply because Israel is a recognized as a state, and as such, has more responsibility than Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, or any such actors, regardless of how reprehensibly they may act.

[adios]

You make an interesting observation methinks. What happened in 2001? Looks like the failed is in regards to this from the same link I provided:

The “al-Aksa Intifada”
by Mitchell Bard

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Casualties


Impact of the Violence


Cease-Fire Efforts



On September 28, 2000, Likud leader Ariel Sharon went to visit the Temple Mount – Judaism’s holiest place, which Muslims have renamed Haram al-Sharif and regard as Islam’s third holiest place. Since that time, Palestinians have engaged in a violent insurrection that has been dubbed the "al-Aksa intifada."

Palestinian spokesmen maintained the violence was caused by the desecration of a Muslim holy place – Haram al-Sharif – by Sharon and the “thousands of Israeli soldiers” who accompanied him. The violence, they said, was carried out through unprovoked attacks by Israeli forces, which invaded Palestinian-controlled territories and “massacred” defenseless Palestinian civilians, who merely threw stones in self-defense.

In fact, Israel's Internal Security Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami permitted Sharon to visit the Temple Mount only after calling Palestinian security chief Jabril Rajoub and receiving his assurance that if Sharon did not enter the mosques, no problems would arise. The need to protect Sharon arose when Rajoub later said that the Palestinian police would do nothing to prevent violence during the visit.

Sharon did not attempt to enter any mosques and his 34 minute visit was conducted during normal hours when the area is open to tourists. Palestinian youths — eventually numbering around 1,500 — shouted slogans in an attempt to inflame the situation. Some 1,500 Israeli police were present at the scene to forestall violence.



There were limited disturbances during Sharon's visit, mostly involving stone throwing. During the remainder of the day, outbreaks of stone throwing continued on the Temple Mount and in the vicinity, leaving 28 Israeli policemen injured, three of whom were hospitalized. There are no accounts of Palestinian injuries on that day. Significant and orchestrated violence was initiated by Palestinians the following day following Friday prayers.

As violence escalated over the following days and weeks, the Palestinians and the media blamed Sharon for the violence. The truth was that the violence started before September 28. The day before, for example, an Israeli soldier was killed at the Netzarim Junction. The soldier was killed after the explosion of a roadside bomb. The next day in the West Bank city of Kalkilya, a Palestinian police officer working with Israeli police on a joint patrol opened fire and killed his Israeli counterpart.

In addition, official Palestinian Authority media exhorted the Palestinians to violence. On September 29, the Voice of Palestine, the PA's official radio station sent out calls "to all Palestinians to come and defend the al-Aksa mosque." The PA closed its schools and bused Palestinian students to the Temple Mount to participate in the organized riots.

Just prior to Rosh Hashanah (September 30), the Jewish New Year, when hundreds of Israelis were worshipping at the Western Wall, thousands of Arabs began throwing bricks and rocks at Israeli police and Jewish worshippers. Rioting then spread to towns and villages throughout Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

While the Palestinians accused Israel of desecrating their holy places, it was the Palestinian rioters who were actually attacking shrines. In October 2000, Palestinian mobs destroyed Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus, tearing up and burning Jewish prayer books. They stoned worshipers at the Western Wall and attacked Rachel’s Tomb in Bethlehem with firebombs and automatic weapons.

None of the violent attacks were initiated by Israeli security forces, which, in all cases, responded to Palestinian violence that went well beyond stone throwing. It included massive attacks with automatic weapons and the lynching of Israeli soldiers. Most armed attackers were members of the Tanzim – Arafat’s own militia.

Imad Faluji, the Palestinian Authority Communications Minister, admitted months after Sharon's visit that the violence had been planned in July, far in advance of Sharon's "provocation." "It [the uprising] had been planned since Chairman Arafat's return from Camp David, when he turned the tables on the former U.S. president and rejected the American conditions."1

On November 7, 2000, an investigatory committee led by former U.S. Senator George Mitchell was established to determine the causes of the violence and to make recommendations for calming the situation. The Mitchell Report issued in April 30, 2001, concluded "the Sharon visit did not cuase the "Al-Aksa intifada."

Casualties
Palestinians, young and old, attack Israeli civilians and soldiers with a variety of weapons. When they throw stones, they are not pebbles, but large rocks that can and do cause serious injuries. Imagine yourself being hit in the head with a rock.

Typically, Israeli troops under attack have numbered fewer than 20, while their assailants, armed with Molotov cocktails, pistols, assault rifles, machine guns, hand grenades and explosives, have numbered in the hundreds. Moreover, mixed among rock throwers have been Palestinians, often policemen, armed with guns. Faced with an angry, violent mob, Israeli police and soldiers often have no choice but to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and, in life-threatening situations, live ammunition.

The use of live-fire by the Palestinians has effectively meant that Israeli forces have had to remain at some distance from those initiating the violence. In addition, the threat of force against Israelis has been a threat of lethal force. Both factors have inhibited the use of traditional methods of riot control.

According to the rules of engagement for Israeli troops in the territories, the use of weapons is authorized solely in life-threatening situations or, subject to significant limitations, in the exercise of the arrest of an individual suspected of having committed a grave security offense. In all cases, IDF activities have been governed by an overriding policy of restraint, the requirement of proportionality and the necessity to take all possible measures to prevent harm to innocent civilians.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians escalated their violent attacks against Israelis by using mortars and anti-tank missiles illegally smuggled into the Gaza Strip. Palestinians have fired mortar shells into Jewish communities in Gaza and Israel proper and IDF reports indicate that anti-tank missiles have been fired at Israeli forces in Gaza.

IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz told visiting American Jewish leaders on Feb. 28, 2001, that the Palestinian Authority (PA) has been stockpiling weapons smuggled into Gaza by sea and underground tunnels linked to Egypt. The possession and use of these weapons and other arms by the Palestinians violates commitments they made in various agreements with Israel. Under the Oslo accords, the only weapons allowed in the Palestinian-controlled areas are handguns, rifles and machine guns, and these are to be held only by PA security officers. The recent violence makes clear that in addition to the police, Palestinian civilians and members of militias, such as the Tanzim, also are in possession of such weapons.2

The PA has failed to take adequate measures to prevent attacks against Israelis. While many terrorists have been apprehended, they are usually released shortly afterward and, at least some of them have subsequently been involved in assaults against Jews. In May 2001, for example, Arafat freed more than a dozen Islamic radicals who had been in jail since a wave of suicide bombings that killed 60 Israelis in eight bloody days in 1996.3

Over the course of the uprising, more than 100 Israelis have been murdered in suicide bombings, sniper attacks, ambushes and other attacks. Press reports, nevertheless, usually focus on the far higher number of Palestinian deaths (more than 500), especially children. The disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties is the inevitable result, however, of an irregular, ill-trained militia attacking a well-trained regular army, and the Tanzim’s frequent use of Palestinian civilians as shields for its attacks. Furthermore, if children were in school or at home with their families, rather than throwing rocks in the streets, they would be in no danger.

Impact of the Violence
Palestinian violence in the West Bank and Gaza Strip has taken the lives of numerous civilians and soldiers. In addition, terrorists acting in the name of the uprising have carried out heinous attacks inside Israel. The violence also has collateral impact on the Israeli psyche, military and economy.

Israelis must now be careful traveling through many parts of Israel and the territories that should be safe. Palestinians have also sniped at Jews in cities such as Gilo that are outside the territories. The violence has severely undermined the faith Israelis had that if they made territorial concessions, peace with the Palestinians was possible.

The uprising also affects military readiness because troops must be diverted from training and preparing against threats from hostile nations and instead must focus on quelling riots and fighting terrorism.

The violence has also caused a sharp reduction in tourism and damaged related industries. And it is not only the Israelis who suffer. The loss of tourism also hurts Palestinians. The number of visitors, for example, who normally visit Bethlehem for Christmas was significantly lower in 2000. The same is true in other pilgrimage sites in the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian shopkeepers in places like the Old City are also affected by the drop in tourism. Terrorist attacks also force Israel to periodically prohibit Palestinian workers from entering Israel, hurting individuals trying to make a living and provide for their families.

Cease-Fire Efforts
On May 22, 2001, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared a unilateral cease-fire in an effort to calm the situation, and in the hope the Palestinians would reciprocate by ending their violent attacks against Israelis. Instead the Palestinians intensified the level of violence directed particularly at Israeli civilians. Yasser Arafat did nothing to stop or discourage the attacks. More than 70 attacks were recorded in the next 10 days, during which Israel held its fire and eschewed any retaliation. The campaign of Palestinian terror during the Israeli cease-fire culminated with the suicide bombing at a Tel Aviv disco June 1 that killed 20 people and injured more than 90, mostly teenagers. In the face of overwhelming international pressure generated by the horrific attack, and the fear of an Israeli counterattack, Arafat finally declared a cease-fire.

The violence continued, however, and CIA Director George Tenet traveled to the Middle East in June in an effort to solidify a cease-fire and lay the groundwork for a resumption of peace talks. The Tenet Plan called for an end to all violent activities. In the six weeks following Tenet's visit, however, Palestinians carried out 850 terrorist attacks resulting in 94 Israeli casualties, 17 of them fatalities.4

Throughout the remainder of the summer, U.S.-led efforts were made to end the violence without success. It was not until after the September 11, 2001, bombing of the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington that Arafat began to take serious measures to stop the violence by arresting terrorists and using his police force to prevent attacks. Though his actions were largely seen as an attempt to curry favor with the Bush Administration in its war against terror, and not repeat the mistake he made of supporting Iraq in the Gulf War, the effect in the short-run at least has been to reduce the level of violence against Israelis. It remains to be seen if this will now mark the end of the "al-Aksa intifada."

[Gamblor]

I can see how it may seem that way, so here goes:

On the one hand, Palestine is not a state, so it has no rights.

As an international entity, yes, that is correct. The individual people, however, do have human rights as any other person does.

Yasser Arafat , the Occupied Territories pseudo-leader, is solely to blame for the violence and despair in the region.

No: he is to blame for the despair, the violence is a by-product of this despair. HOWEVER: the violence is not a result of the despair, but a symptom of it. There's a difference.

Yet he has almost zippo economic power over the region. The West Bank and Gaza strip are some of the worst areas in the world from an economic standpoint.

True.

Meanwhile, the territory is now occupied by a legitimately recognized state, Israel. As occupiers, the Israelis, by international law, have the obligation to see to it that the Palestinians are treated well, and supoort economic growth in the area.

The Arabs flourished under Israeli rule - more than 300,000 Arab workers had jobs in Israel with identity cards that allowed them to work anywhere they could find a job. Israeli governments financed education as well - the Bir Zeit University as well as the University of Gaza was funded by Israel in hopes that education would bring them out of them miserable hatred of Israel. In fact, a significant part of the Arab population is much happier under "occupation" - for example, they were allowed regular entry into Israel - they are subject to the internal power struggles in Palestinian politics. where struggles for support are manifested in whoever can cause the most deaths in Israel, and have forced the army to take charge.

Semantically, you are right. But ultimately they are still individual people making individual decisions. And unfortunately, the individual Arabs now have only PA/Hamas propaganda to guide their decision making process, and as such the squalor has taken over.

[Gamblor]

Israeli land confiscation policies:

Pretty simple, I'll go slowly so you can understand:

1) Arab nations ranging from Iraq to Egypt declare war on Israel, and invade small Jewish state.

2) Israel wins war, conquering land used by Arab nations as staging grounds for attacks.

3) In order to prevent future attacks from close range, Israel confiscates land from supporters of Arab armies (you know, the same ones who intended to "drive the Jews into the sea". Remember them?

4) Wash, rinse, repeat.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

OK Ray

I have to agree here.

Good observation, particularly about economically well of people being generally happier and less violent.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I don't deny one bit that yasser is an [censored] and I wish the SOB would just DIE already. He's caused more than enough trouble for several lifetimes.

But israel needs to lay off too. Nobody wants to give an inch, even if they would get a mile in return.

For people like me, who have no vested interest in either palestine or israel, nor the success/failure/well-being of either one, we really are just sick of all of it. Nuke the whole damn middle east for all I care at this point.

I MIGHT be killed in a terrorist attack because of the US supporting israel. This is true despite the fact I could care less about the whole damn conflict, except for the fact that it's dominating world politics, and directly affecting me here in the US. Nevertheless, I cannot personally dictate what I think the US should do, I am only one man.

Not that I have any particular ill-will towards israel either.

Nor do I for the palestinians.

But I am damn sick of the whole friggin' conflict.

The palestinians need to release their hate. They need to lay the FK off of their "dowm with israel at all costs" policy. This goes for MANY, but certainly not all arabs (and obviously not all palestinians either).

Israel needs to get the FK out of gaza and the west bank, no matter how legitimately they may have wound up there in the first place. It's only land, the number of lives lost over it doesn't come close to the actual value of the land.

And the whole damn thing needs to go away, replaced by economic security and peaceful co-existence.

Yea, I know, I am being naive. Hatred is much thicker than blood or money.

al