Beating the rake

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
There may be more mid limit games online than at a B&M

I'm pretty sure Wake up is wrong about this!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your comment rigoletto, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Now what has changed?

[Vehn]

The percentage of mid limit players to low limit in online rooms versus B&M's is the crux of my argument and is utterly relevant, I apologize if that is unclear.

I'm assuming that since you chose to ignore my last post save for what I feel was the most uninteresting and obvious single sentence, that this discussion is over?

[rigoletto]

Now what has changed?

Well for one this thread is two posts longer [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Right now there are 6 games above 5/10 at Paradise and 20 games at Party. It's probably more at peak time but it would seem to me that Vegas alone would have more games than this! Maybe some Vegasites can answer this (or is it Vegasians)?

[Wake up CALL]

I'm not in Vegas at the moment but travel there regularly. The only time I can imagine that there are more than 26 games above 5/10 in the entire city (much less just two casinos) would be during the WSOP and The Orleans open. If you take all the other online casinos into account and the fact that they are pretty much busy 24/7 it is why I feel my estimate about mid-limt games is reasonable. I previously stated I have no way to irrefutably prove this one way or another. The base of my assumptions apply even if this one is incorrect. That is that there is no reason to believe that online mid-limit games will dry up faster due to rake compared to B&M games disregarding a drastice change in the current US laws (or lack therof).

[Bob T.]

There are a lot more midlimit games outside of vegas, where pit games aren't played like California, and Arizona. There are probably a lot more, out on the east coast, and there are some in the rest of the world also. So I think that there probably are more B&M midlimit games, than online games.

[prairieboy]

I think that the ratio of high/low limit players in a cardroom (online or B&M) is a factor of a casino's cost structure and capacity rather than the skill/preferred stakes of the players. Here's why:

B&M cardrooms incurr an incremental cost (dealer pay) for every table they open and they have a limited number of tables at which they can offer games. Therefore, their goal is to maximize the profit that they make from each of their limited set of tables. Accordingly, they will choose to offer more mid/high limit games (with a higher absolute rake per hour than a low limit table) and fewer low limit games. B&M players who would otherwise like to play low-limit can either leave or bite the bullet and play for higher stakes. Tourists and addicted gamblers choose to play, everyone else leaves, plays less frequently or doesn't come at all and plays online.

Online cardrooms can open as many tables as their server capacity will allow and they incurr almost zero incremental costs per table. As such, their profit-maximizing strategy is to maximize the number of players, regardless of the stakes that are being played. Given a choice, most people(particularly the newbie or casual player) gravitate to low limits where their $100 or $200 stake will last longer.

Thus there are proportionately more low limit tables online than in a B&M cardroom.

This structural difference results in a scenario where B&M has a higer percentage of mid/high limit games, but relatively more unskilled players (tourists, addicted gamblers, newbies) in each game wheras online the gamblers and newbies can find a lower limit game and thus only the wealthy and/or skilled players are in the higher limit games - making online a tougher environment in which to play.

What does this mean for the players?

B&M has worse game selection, rake percentage, and hands/hour but compensates by offering weaker competition (except perhaps at the very high limits). Therefore, given that you will be seeing fewer hands, you should play in a higher limit game in order to maximize the dollar amount of each pot that you win.

Online has a wide selection of games, many hands per hour and a lower rake percentage, but the fish are mostly schooling at the low limit tables. Therefore, you should look to maximize the number of hands you see per hour with less emphasis on the stakes involved. i.e. play multiple low limit tables rather than one high limit table.

This structural difference (and resulting difference in player strategy) accounts for why there seem to be more 2+2ers playing low limits online and high limits in B&M.

[lefty rosen]

This is the standard rake at online poker too, and this easily can be beaten live or online. It maybe easier if live if you know how to beat no foldem games. Now you won't beat it for much live. I'm guessing not much more than 6 an hour at 2/4 and 9 at 3/6 and that's only if you are an expert player.

[Bob T.]

I think that your response here is very well thought out. It has been my experience that I make almost the same amount of money per hour per table at online poker, regardless of the limit. ( I seem to make more at 5-10, but I don't know if that is an anomaly, or if there is something different about that game ). So when I am going to play 1-2, 2-4, or 3-6, I pick the best games at those limits, regardless of the limit.