Omar Vizquel- HOF worthy?

[LBJ]

When creating this thread I decided to compare both Omar Vizquel and Ozzie Smith because I felt it was a fair comparison. I believe the stats I compiled showed Omar was a better ball player or even on the same level Ozzie Smith.

Without anything to compare, the UZR rating is useless. Like I said there is a huge amount of different stats, and MLB and the public choose to use the most important, so let's stick with them. That way we can compare both Omar and Ozzie without going through too much trouble.

[battschr]

The MLB certainly does not use the most important. For instance, they always use AVG./HR/RBI on TV broadcasts when these certainly aren't the most important offensive statistics. Anyway, I don't think Vizquel is a HOFer, so agree to disagree then. I don't want to argue w/ you, why don't we talk about something we would agree upon? Judging by your avatar, I think Lebron would be a good choice.

[battschr]

Ok, found one more.

http://baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=1337

[LBJ]

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The MLB certainly does not use the most important. For instance, they always use AVG./HR/RBI on TV broadcasts when these certainly aren't the most important offensive statistics. Anyway, I don't think Vizquel is a HOFer, so agree to disagree then. I don't want to argue w/ you, why don't we talk about something we would agree upon? Judging by your avatar, I think Lebron would be a good choice.

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The MLB can't fit all 15+ offensive stats they use for a player on to the screen and those 3 stats are the most recognized by the public. But if you go to a MLB players page and look at their statistics, you'll see all the stats needed to make an accurate judgment of a player.

[Victor]

oh man. i cant wait for tolbiny to see this thread. we had this same conversations last night. he was adamant that omar was better than ozzie. i say no freakin way. however, i think a strong case can be made for omar in the HOF.

[battschr]

EQA, VORP, etc are better measures of a player's offensive performance than any one of BA, OBP, etc. UZR is a better measure of a player's defensive performance than Fielding % or errors made. The reason MLB and the public use the other states is not because they are better, but because they are traditional, people are used to them.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

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This is easily the dumbest statement I've heard of yet in this thread. I was a season-tickets holder for the Cleveland Indians from 1994-2002 and I can tell you first-hand that Omar's reputation as a SS was because of his endurance at defense. Even the numbers can prove you wrong. If Omar has less errors and a better FEILD%, then he consistently played better and made less mistakes.

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This is like a mom telling everybody that her baby is the cutest baby in the whole world. She's not really saying it with a objective opinion in things. New York fans over the years insist that Derek Jeter is in fact a good defensive short stop because they see him play every day when all other evidence suggest otherwise.

Also I already pointed out to you why Fielding% and Errors aren't the most important defensive statistic. It doesnt' account for how many balls a player gets to. Generally, a person who has more range will have more errors because he's getting to more balls (thus making harder players and more chance of errors). He may make a few more errors but thats because he gets to so many more balls. If you check the stats, Ozzie Smith by far had the best range factor for shortstops in history.

[Jack of Arcades]

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I'd like to see your case for Ozzie being a much better hitter "in context." OPS+ doesn't bear that out.

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1) OBP is not weighted properly by OPS. More of Ozzie's OPS came from OBP, and he was better in relation to the league.
2) Ozzie was a much better baserunner.

[Jack of Arcades]

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Here's the link to those numbers for those interested:

http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the numbers. Please tell me what the hell they mean. In all honesty, there are a million different stats out there that can be used for each sides of arguments. You see this in the NBA all the time. Theres a million different sites with a bunch of different stats, and many times you can use one stat to prove a player is the best and another stat to prove a player is the worst.

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UZR is, essentially, the propietary stat the Cardinals use to measure defense. It's similar to what LA and OAK use, as well.

[Jack of Arcades]

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Larkin = HOFer?

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Oh god yes. Alan Trammell, too.